Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

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_huckelberry
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _huckelberry »

EAllusion wrote:
The CCC wrote:If you want to understand Ayn Rand it is best to come at it by what clap-trap she wrote.
SEE http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/ayn-ran ... -shrugged/

I'm not a fan of Ayn Rand, but this piece at times confuses Ayn Rand's use of metaphor and failures as a writer with her actual positions.


When I read the article I thought it made some sharp points. I also wondered if it wandered well into the territory EAllusions observes here.

Without liking her I still find myself wondering at the persisting influence she has. I find myself reviewing late sixties counterculture and remembering more echoes of her than of radical left wingers. There were those as well as well an Chech an Cong duplicates unconcerned with either of course. People suspected the government as surpressing freedom and individuality. Kesey writes "Sometimes a Great Notion" wrestling with the story behind the story of rugged individuals vs the drab socialist conformate of people trapped in the unions. There are certainly strong Rand echos there.

I checked wikapedia found this quote from Altas Shrugged.

"[To those who say] that morality is social and that man would need no morality on a desert island—it is on a desert island that he would need it most. Let him try to claim, when there are no victims to pay for it, that a rock is a house, that sand is clothing, that food will drop into his mouth without cause or effort, that he will collect a harvest tomorrow by devouring his stock seed today—and reality will wipe him out, as he deserves; reality will show him that life is a value to be bought and that thinking is the only coin noble enough to buy it."

I admit that I find a sentiment here which makes sense. Then it might be simple enough to be hard to disagree with. (sort of like an ontology that goes there is a reality we perceive by our senses and must understand using our minds to form ideas)

Is it that we have simple ideas presented in images which carry some emotional impact which as signs or representations of doctrines do not need to be realistic to communicate or be memorable. The article criticizes the unreality of the Colorado hippi commune Galt is running. Perhaps it was not intended to meet standards of realism.

I think there is a difficulty which results however. Not requiring realism bypasses the thinking process which must see realistic context in which actual political policy operates. It may be true the government can be oppressive to individual invention drive aspirations and hard work. It does not follow from that that governement should always be smaller. The idea does nothing to clarify whether our current government needs to be larger, smaller or maybe the same size but better directed.
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _huckelberry »

A couple of years ago I purchased a copy of the Atlas shrugged book in order to get better picture of what her thinking is. I have been put off enough by her writing style, or lack of style, that it remains mostly unread. When I was in high school I read the Fountainhead. That would be my only real acquaintance with Rands writing. I had mixed feelings, perhaps I should say some ambivalence to my strong attraction to the work. Is it not a good thing to rise above conforming mediocrity to accomplish great things?

Later I wondered just what was so great about the architect. He was we are assured terrific and the ordinary folks didn't see. There might be some appeal to inflated egos in this.
_subgenius
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _subgenius »

The CCC wrote:He was a continuing model in her books.

Can you also cut-n-paste the CFR for this?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_The CCC
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _The CCC »

No.
_EAllusion
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _EAllusion »

subgenius wrote:
moksha wrote:Could we turn your interlocution around on you Subgenius and ask how greed is good?

sure, why not?

Greed, is not solely good nor solely bad.
First let me define what i mean when i say "greed" - in simple terms - greed is an intense and selfish desire for something.
Which seems to imply that greed is simply a level of want, of desire. That perhaps a term such as excess is an important qualifier when considering the moral value of desire.....the object of that desire? can that be relevant to determining whether "greed" is morally good or bad? If one has an intense and selfish desire to be with God, would that be bad-greedy? or good-greedy?...or just not greedy at all?
Nevertheless, for this side-bar I am assuming that greed is an intense form of desire/want and that this form tends to be self-centered in its extreme and thus the way that greed can be good is by how it can be an incentive for a person to work, to start a business, and even to travel to the moon. Yes, a person can be greedy for knowledge and that does not inherently mean that their greed is "bad" does it? If, say, in pursuit of that knowledge the person decides to burden another person(s) either unnecessarily or without just compensation then we might could determine that the greed caused a bad action, but given that this action was a choice....i am not comfortable assuming that "bad" is the only product possible from greedy thoughts.

So, back to being selfish....what particular Christian teaching/scripture gives us a definition and a moral value for selfishness?


I think this misses the point. Rand's point of view is that morality is identical to behaving in self-interest. Acting against one's one self-interest is immoral according to Rand. She's not saying that sometimes it's wrong not to be selfish. She's saying that being altruistic is always immoral. Figuring out what is moral, in Rand's worldview, is the same as figuring out what best advances personal interest. She's was a small-l libertarian because she believed, implausibly, adopting a libertarian natural rights scheme best advances self-interest.

Do you agree with this? Do you think this is the message of your Christian faith?

As for where Rand goes wrong, I'm fond of this essay and link it from time to time:

http://web.archive.org/web/200102211241 ... /rand.html
_subgenius
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _subgenius »

The CCC wrote:No.

Yeah, we all figured as much
:biggrin:
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_The CCC
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _The CCC »

You "figured" wrong. You asked if could cut and paste a CFR. I can but won't.
_subgenius
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _subgenius »

The CCC wrote:You "figured" wrong. You asked if could cut and paste a CFR. I can but won't.

i asked if you "can" and you said "no"
I did not ask if you "will"
and now you say you "can"...so either you are senile or are just a liar - or perhaps it was you that figured wrong

so, let us stick with your first answer - you actually can't....no worries, my kids try to be silly like that when they actually "can't"...but we all get it.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Morley
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _Morley »

The CCC wrote:He was a continuing model in her books.

subgenius wrote:Can you also cut-n-paste the CFR for this?

The CCC wrote:No.

subgenius wrote:Yeah, we all figured as much : biggrin:

The CCC wrote:You "figured" wrong. You asked if could cut and paste a CFR. I can but won't.

subgenius wrote:i asked if you "can" and you said "no"
I did not ask if you "will"
and now you say you "can"...



My God, the sexual tension is killing me. Why don't you two just get a room and get it over with?
_The CCC
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Re: Ayn Rand - GOP Thinker.

Post by _The CCC »

He's not my type. :biggrin:
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