Where is America Headed?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_cinepro
_Emeritus
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 pm

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _cinepro »

Some Schmo wrote:The point of the article is that the money that is saved by not paying employees a living wage has been going entirely toward profits for owners and shareholders.


That's not true. Some of it has been going towards "profits for owners and shareholders", but that's not where all the money in a business goes. You're not even including the taxes paid on that money, which at the very least would be an off-set to the government costs that you're so worried about (ironically).

It's about income inequality. There was a time when labor costs kept up with inflation, and companies didn't suffer for it. In fact, they benefited because people had more money to spend on less essential things, therefore, more businesses were viable. When you have more customers, you require more labor. I've heard business owner after business owner talking about how tax savings never made them hire more people; only more customers did that.



When was this time, and were there other economic factors at play?

Right now, because Walmart, one of the country's largest employers, pays a poverty wage, we are subsidizing their workers through welfare programs. So essentially, our tax dollars are going toward making up the difference between what Walmart pays and what people need to live. As a tax payer, I'd rather not pick up the tab for Walmart.

Keeping wages low is the worst idea for a thriving economy.



If that's the case, then raising them unilaterally to an arbitrary floor by order of politicians is the second worst idea for a "thriving economy."
_cinepro
_Emeritus
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 pm

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _cinepro »

Some Schmo wrote:You can't take one company in isolation and make a broad statement about the economy based on a what would happen to that single company if only they made the change and nobody else did. If you raise the minimum wage, everyone's wage has to adjust for that change, not just Apple or Ford employees. More money would be changing hands across the board, and that's what economies are based on - money moving around.


Economies aren't based on "money moving around." They're based on people (companies and individuals) working to provide goods and services that are in demand by other people (companies and individuals).

Simply giving more cash to a certain group of people doesn't help an economy thrive because that cash doesn't necessarily indicate an increase in the amount of available goods or services. You might move the money around, but if that money doesn't have root in some increase in value, then there is no real increase in demand.

That's why it's so obvious that employers of low-skill workers will have to make adjustments to the hours, staffing and pay in their businesses to account for a higher minimum wage.

It would be like the gardeners in your community (who were making $150/month per house) getting together and demanding a minimum "Gardener Wage" of $450/month (because that's what they think the living wage is for gardeners). If they got that passed, what would happen? Would people with gardeners all just dip into their "profits" and pay the difference? Some might. But others might cut down on the frequency they use gardeners. Some might just do it themselves. Some prospective house-buyers who want to have a gardener might choose to live elsewhere to avoid it. Some might buy "automation" (i.e. an electric mower).

And what would happen to the lowest-tier gardeners who had been charging $50/month per house? Compared to the elite white-truck gardeners with polo shirts, who do you think would be hurt the most by this living wage?

Would you say that ultimately it would work out because the community has more money changing hands? If people can just dig in and pay the $450/month, then the gardeners will spend more money and everyone will get raises that are high enough to cover it? Everyone?

No. It's not magic. It's math and rational decisions. The gardening industry in this community would be devastated. Elite gardeners would have much less competition from "undesirable" gardeners.
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _Some Schmo »

cinepro wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:The point of the article is that the money that is saved by not paying employees a living wage has been going entirely toward profits for owners and shareholders.


That's not true. Some of it has been going towards "profits for owners and shareholders", but that's not where all the money in a business goes. You're not even including the taxes paid on that money, which at the very least would be an off-set to the government costs that you're so worried about (ironically).

I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or daft with these comments. I was talking about the increase in profits/income inequality over the past few decades. Businesses have always had other expenses and have always had to pay taxes.

I can tell you aren't interested in this argument because you're a business owner (or perhaps someone who wants to appear as one - but your knowledge of economics is clearly lacking). You haven't read the article, so I don't really see a point in arguing with you about it. Your head is firmly planted in the sand, which makes you are a part of the problem.

If you want to read the article in the OP and comment on it, do it. Otherwise, you're just blowing out crap you've likely been regurgitating for quite some time now.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _moksha »

I think the author would forgo any quibbling about price raising to ensure the plutarchy enjoy the fruits of their ownership for as long as possible. Otherwise, countervailing arguments are simultaneously both dust in the wind and an invitation to be a guest of honor at a drumhead trial.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_cinepro
_Emeritus
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 pm

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _cinepro »

Some Schmo wrote: You haven't read the article, so I don't really see a point in arguing with you about it. Your head is firmly planted in the sand, which makes you are a part of the problem.

If you want to read the article in the OP and comment on it, do it. Otherwise, you're just blowing out crap you've likely been regurgitating for quite some time now.


I actually totally support the idea of companies paying their workers more. As far as wage disparity goes, my company has a ratio of 3.4 for the highest paid "executive" and the average employee pay. That appears to be pretty good.

But he's totally out to lunch on the idea that raising the minimum wage will solve any of the social problems he's concerned about. He says:

Today in America, tens of millions of lower- and middle-class workers are routinely subject to poverty wages, unpaid overtime, wage theft, dehumanizing scheduling practices and the constant threat of automation or off-shoring.


These are the things that are most exacerbated by raising the minimum wage (although it should be pointed out that there are already laws against unpaid overtime and wage theft, so no changes are needed there). Sure, it might help out with some people getting "poverty wages", but there will be others that get fewer hours or lose their jobs, and have a more difficult time finding a job in the first place.

He's woefully ignorant to assume that he can predict the effects of raising the minimum wage will have for all companies and all workers. There are just too many variables. It will work out great for some, and it will be disastrous for others. Just like Henry Ford was great at running a car company but totally foolish to assume that he was driving up meaningful demand for his product by paying his employees more. No Henry, you were succeeding because you were providing a product that many people wanted and the price worked out that they could afford it; not because consumers were being paid artificially inflated wages but because they had jobs that were making a commensurate economic contribution to their companies.

It's also obvious that he is basing his theories on a shallow and clichéd view of economics when he says "It simply isn’t true that reasonable wages, decent labor protections and higher taxes on the rich would destroy the economy. Such were the norms back in the 1950s and 1960s when America’s growth rates were much higher."

The 1950s and 1960s were a time of extreme American economic exceptionalism as the world continued to rebuild after WWII and China and other economies were mired in the stone ages. And it was exceptionalism most tightly focused on white men in America. See if you can find a black woman who agrees that things were economically great in the 1950s and 1960s.

If we want to go back to the economic privilege of the 1950s and 1960s when a white man with only a high school degree could work in a factory and support a family, then we'll need to bomb the manufacturing capacity of Europe and Japan and South America into oblivion and then cut all the minorities and women out of the workforce. Voila! We're back to the paradise of the 1950s and 1960s.

Oh, and we'll have to outlaw computers too.

Of course, we'll have to accept a huge drop in our standard of living as well. We'll have to live in much smaller houses, drive fewer cars, and have a much smaller selection of food items and consumer goods to choose from.

I'm not defending "excessive" CEO pay. And I laud companies that treat their employees well and pay them well (and I like to think my company does. Certainly, employee retention would seem to indicate a high degree of satisfaction from those who work here.) But the idea that raising the price of something won't decrease the demand for it is absurd. The effects of raising the minimum wage become more and more obvious and predictable the higher it gets raised, as low-wage workers have found out in Seattle:

https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/file ... erview.pdf

The second Seattle minimum wage increase, to as much as $13/hour on January 1, 2016, resulted in:

- a 3% increase in hourly wages for low-wage employees.

- a 9% reduction in hours worked at wages below $19/hour. A disemployment effect of this size would occur if, for example, a business that employed 11 low wage workers per shift in 2014 cut back to about 10 workers per shift in 2016.

- a reduction of over $100 million per year in total payroll for low-wage jobs, measured as total sum of increased wages received less wages lost due to employment reductions. Total payroll losses average about $125 per job per month.

- The findings that total payroll for low-wage jobs declined rather than rose as a consequence of the 2016
minimum wage increase is at odds with most prior studies of minimum wage laws. These differences likely reflect methodological improvements made possible by Washington State’s exceptional individual - level data. When we replicate methods used in previous studies, we produce the same results as previously found.

And as noted above, survey data collected independently of this data analysis indicate that the inclusion of multiple
- location businesses would not significantly alter the results.
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _The CCC »

cinepro wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:The point of the article is that the money that is saved by not paying employees a living wage has been going entirely toward profits for owners and shareholders.


That's not true. Some of it has been going towards "profits for owners and shareholders", but that's not where all the money in a business goes. You're not even including the taxes paid on that money, which at the very least would be an off-set to the government costs that you're so worried about (ironically).

It's about income inequality. There was a time when labor costs kept up with inflation, and companies didn't suffer for it. In fact, they benefited because people had more money to spend on less essential things, therefore, more businesses were viable. When you have more customers, you require more labor. I've heard business owner after business owner talking about how tax savings never made them hire more people; only more customers did that.



When was this time, and were there other economic factors at play?

Right now, because Walmart, one of the country's largest employers, pays a poverty wage, we are subsidizing their workers through welfare programs. So essentially, our tax dollars are going toward making up the difference between what Walmart pays and what people need to live. As a tax payer, I'd rather not pick up the tab for Walmart.

Keeping wages low is the worst idea for a thriving economy.



If that's the case, then raising them unilaterally to an arbitrary floor by order of politicians is the second worst idea for a "thriving economy."


Walmart's business model is forcing its employees to use government services to just stay alive. This decreases Walmart's overhead by shifting it to the tax payers. It is not the only profiteers on the backs of its employees, and the rest of us.
SEE https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... ps/309625/

Costco's business model is based on paying it employees enough not only to live on but to contribute to tax funds, and of have better lives.

Employee turnover is a big cost for any employer. After the supply of locally available workers is exhausted the company must pay better, or move out of the local area, or go bankrupt. Walmart chose to leave the local area leaving the area less well off than before it moved in.
SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXmnBbUjsPs
_cinepro
_Emeritus
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 pm

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _cinepro »

The CCC wrote:
Walmart's business model is forcing its employees to use government services to just stay alive. This decreases Walmart's overhead by shifting it to the tax payers. It is not the only profiteers on the backs of its employees, and the rest of us.
SEE https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... ps/309625/

Costco's business model is based on paying it employees enough not only to live on but to contribute to tax funds, and of have better lives.

Employee turnover is a big cost for any employer. After the supply of locally available workers is exhausted the company must pay better, or move out of the local area, or go bankrupt. Walmart chose to leave the local area leaving the area less well off than before it moved in.
SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXmnBbUjsPs



Your first link, discusses McDonalds, not Walmart, but I've seen the reports of Walmart doing it too.

Obviously, it would be great if everyone in the country that wanted to work was able to get a job that gave them as many hours as they wanted (and the schedule that they wanted), and paid them as much as they wanted or needed. Students and teenagers could get part time jobs that paid a little less because they still live at home or have lower expenses. Parents at the same company doing the same work could get the hours they want, but be paid more because they need more.

But that obviously isn't the case. If there was a magic wand that could be waved to make it so, I would be the first to say "Wave that wand!" But in the absence of such magic, I can understand the keen desire to look at the government and think "if we can get the government to just do XYZ, we'll have this predictable, desirable outcome that will outweigh the negative costs." And the simplest idea is to think "if we can only get the government to make businesses pay more, then everyone will be paid more." How could that not be true? It's just pure logic and math.

But if you think about it even for a minute, it's obvious there will be adjustments that are negative for some workers. Sure, some workers will make more, but others won't. And who are the ones that will make more? Obviously the ones with more experience, better connections, better education, and better skills. In order to believe that there will be no negative consequences you have to believe that employers won't act rationally. And you have to assume that the ones that try to maintain their operations without any negative consequences to their workers will be able to stay in business. That's not a given.

I understand the impulse for social justice and the idea that with just a little help from the government, everyone can win. But the minimum wage is a very blunt policy when it comes to trying to pick winners and losers, and as the Seattle study shows, we can't control the outcome.

Ultimately, governor Jerry Brown summarized it best when signing California's minimum wage increase:

Brown, traveling to the state’s largest media market to sign the landmark bill, remained hesitant about the economic effect of raising the minimum wage, saying, “Economically, minimum wages may not make sense.”

But he said work is “not just an economic equation,” calling labor “part of living in a moral community.”

http://www.latimes.com/visuals/video/86436773-132.html


Do you think it had ever occurred to anyone else in that room that "economically, minimum wages may not make sense"? Did they pause to consider what that even meant? What does it mean to pass economic legislation that doesn't make "sense" for purposes of social justice and good feelings?
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _The CCC »

As I said Walmart isn't the only one doing it.

Most minimum wage earners are not students or part time workers by choice. They are in fact over 23 years old.
SEE http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... imum-wage/
_cinepro
_Emeritus
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 pm

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _cinepro »

The CCC wrote:As I said Walmart isn't the only one doing it.

Most minimum wage earners are not students or part time workers by choice. They are in fact over 23 years old.
SEE http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... imum-wage/


As the minimum wage increases, it would be expected for fewer teens to be employed as jobs shift to older and more experienced and educated workers:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 007-9038-6

The relationship between minimum wage increases and youth employment is investigated using county-level data and spatial econometric techniques. Results that account for spatial correlation indicate that a 10% increase in the effective minimum wage is associated with a 3.2% decrease in youth employment, a result that is 28% higher than the corresponding estimate that does not control for spatial correlation.
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Where is America Headed?

Post by _The CCC »

Your average teen in America doesn't support themselves and their family. I've had some type of a job since I was knee high to a Grasshopper. But no, I didn't need it to support myself and my family. Paying me the minimum wage didn't spell poverty. Adults working for minimum wage spells poverty for their whole family. I can't think of a single time when raising the minimum wage actually decreased employment in average adults.
Post Reply