Sex Before Marriage

[Guest]

The Washington Post reports, "Laws in 27 states do not specify an age below which a child cannot marry. Unchained At Last, a nonprofit I founded to help women resist or escape forced marriage in the United States, spent the past year collecting marriage license data from 2000 to 2010, the most recent year for which most states were able to provide information. We learned that in 38 states, more than 167,000 children — almost all of them girls, some as young 12 — were married during that period, mostly to men 18 or older. Twelve states and the District of Columbia were unable to provide information on how many children had married there in that decade. Based on the correlation we identified between state population and child marriage, we estimated that the total number of children wed in America between 2000 and 2010 was nearly 248,000."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... e21b59ed97

"Children as young as 12 were granted marriage licences in Alaska, Louisiana and South Carolina, while 11 other states allowed 13-year-olds to wed"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 30266.html

But if a beautiful 20 year old girl has sex with a 16 year old boy, the 20 year old girl goes to prison and is added on sex offender for the rest of her life. For many states sex is okay as long as it is a marriage, but it is wrong when it is not a marriage. Isn't the system all mess up? Lawmakers are full of s***. How can the law allow under 15 year olds to get married, but at the same time punish 20 year old girls? Makes no sense.

[_Xenophon]

Yes, forced childhood marriage is a terrible thing and we should work to stop it, I'm glad there are non-profits working on just that... but violating your responsibility and authority as a teacher, such as in the previous thread you created, is not to be excused because of it. You're right of course, that many aspects of the law can seem a bit archaic. Have you ever thought about volunteering/working with one of these groups that is fighting this, you seem to have a passion for it.

That said, the part I still really don't understand about your posts is this little habit of yours DT:

But if a beautiful 20 year old girl has sex with a 15 year old boy, the 20 year old girl goes to prison and is added on sex offender for the rest of her life. For many states sex is okay as long as it is a marriage, but it is wrong when it is not a marriage. Isn't the system all mess up? Lawmakers are full of s***. How can the law allow under 15 year olds to get married, but at the same time punish attractive year old girls? Makes no sense.

Emphasis mine, of course. What does the relative attractiveness of the offender have to do with anything? If she was a hideous woman, would you be more bothered by it? What if it was a hideous man? Beautiful man? I believe this habit of yours has been pointed out before, I'm just curious what you think it adds to the story.

[_DoubtingThomas]

Emphasis mine, of course. What does the relative attractiveness of the offender have to do with anything? If she was a hideous woman, would you be more bothered by it?

First I want to apologize I been posting too many sex related topics, this one has to be my last one. It just really bothers me because I used to think sex before marriage was an abomination.

What does the related attractiveness of the offender? I understand for the law 20 year old girls having consensual sex with 16-17 year old students are offenders, but not for me. For me offenders are rapists. Yes attractiveness is irrelevant for actual offenders.

not to be excused because of it.

I agree, but I think it is morally wrong to send them to prison. For me mass incarceration in the US is worst than 20 year old girls having consensual sex with students.

So to be clear I believe 20 year old teachers having sex with students should be fired not doubt, but I feel it is morally wrong to send them to prison. Prison should only be for rapists and child molesters.

You're right of course, that many aspects of the law can seem a bit archaic.

Yes, it is a horrible double standard. How can beautiful 20 year old girls be offenders for consensual sex, but at the same time the law allowing 13 year old girls to marry old men? Just mad s*** crazy.

I believe this habit of yours has been pointed out before, I'm just curious what you think it adds to the story.

Yes, but as EAllusion explains, "I think DoubtingThomas highlights these points in an effort to point out that the high schoolers they had relationships with probably wanted it,"

[_Lemmie]

What does the related attractiveness of the offender?

No, DT. Xenophon wasn't talking about what it has to do with the case, he was asking why you always mention it when you discuss a case.

[_Xenophon]

What does the related attractiveness of the offender?

No, DT. Xenophon wasn't talking about what it has to do with the case, he was asking why you always mention it when you discuss a case.

Thanks, Lemmie. the implication that the attractiveness is important to this case is, at best, a distraction in these kinds of posts. DT, I know what EA has said about your logic, I'm asking you to expand though.

Do you think that if these women were ugly (by your standards because you don't know how the victim views this) that it would somehow change the "consent factor" from these boys? Again, to my questions that you dodged, would your opinion of this case be different if it was an ugly women? ugly man? beautiful man?

I think many people would agree with you in terms of overcrowded prisons, that marriage laws are maybe worth taking a hard look at and other issues. The way you frame these stories does not lend itself to agreement though. I'd note that even after I pointed out your behavior, you did it again in the reply. I'm fairly certain I understand your take on the beauty of these teachers.

[_EAllusion]

I think a teacher-student relationship is inherently fraught with coercion and claiming a sexual relationship between a 24 year old teacher and a student near the statutory age of consent as consensual is consequently questionable. I don't think this is the same as 1st degree rape, but I think there is room, depending on the individual circumstances of the case, to tack criminal justice penalties onto termination and loss of license. Again, I don't think those penalties need be 10-15 years in prison, but I also don't think it is a given that this should be an entirely civil matter.

[_Lemmie]

What does the related attractiveness of the offender?

No, DT. Xenophon wasn't talking about what it has to do with the case, he was asking why you always mention it when you discuss a case.

Thanks, Lemmie. the implication that the attractiveness is important to this case is, at best, a distraction in these kinds of posts.

Sorry, didn't mean to step in, it's just that I was about to ask the same question when I noticed your question and his response!

Xenophon is making some extremely valid points, DT:

DT, I know what EA has said about your logic, I'm asking you to expand though.

Do you think that if these women were ugly (by your standards because you don't know how the victim views this) that it would somehow change the "consent factor" from these boys? Again, to my questions that you dodged, would your opinion of this case be different if it was an ugly women? ugly man? beautiful man?

I think many people would agree with you in terms of overcrowded prisons, that marriage laws are maybe worth taking a hard look at and other issues. The way you frame these stories does not lend itself to agreement though. I'd note that even after I pointed out your behavior, you did it again in the reply. I'm fairly certain I understand your take on the beauty of these teachers.

[_EAllusion]

The reason people bring up the attractiveness of female teachers in these cases, and the reason that they have a tendency to make national news, is because people like to fantasize about having sex with them as students. This is what lessens how bad it seems in people's minds because it feels more consensual based on that desire.

This is a load of nonsense. We can't tell if it's more or less consensual based on how pretty the teachers are. It also leads to age, racial, and gender discrimination in people's judgments insofar as older people, minorities, and men are on average perceived by a white male audience as less attractive and therefore more culpable.

DT seems to get all of that, yet persists on bringing it up every time he gets a chance. I think he's got to reconcile with that and account for why he keeps doing it.

[_Themis]

I agree, but I think it is morally wrong to send them to prison. For me mass incarceration in the US is worst than 20 year old girls having consensual sex with students.

Nobody does prisons like the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

[_Themis]

This is a load of nonsense. We can't tell if it's more or less consensual based on how pretty the teachers are. It also leads to age, racial, and gender discrimination in people's judgments insofar as older people, minorities, and men are on average perceived by a white male audience as less attractive and therefore more culpable.

Attractive people tend to get more lenient sentences then peopled viewed less attractive.