Vogel's second video on Abraham

[_Dan Vogel]

In this video I will look closely at the first phase of Joseph Smith’s working with the Egyptian papyri in July 1835 and show that a more complete understanding of the content of the Alphabets and bound Grammar renders the reverse-translation theory of the apologists even less feasible. More importantly, we will get a view of the inner-workings of Joseph Smith’s elaborate scheme to secure the confidence of his followers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcuCf5R7rF4

[_RockSlider]

I listened to the whole of it, but don't understand the points made.

I kind of got the dates issue, but I'm totally lost on the woman/underwater bit. I've also never seen/heard of there being three versions of the alphabet by three different writers?

The Book of Abraham issues just continue to elude me and this video tended to confuse me even more verses learning something from it.

[_Dr Exiled]

Can't wait to listen (usually listen while driving, so I can't watch). I find that I need to listen several times to be able to understand some of the subtle issues Dan raises in his videos. The apologists are a crafty bunch sometimes and one must look closely at what they are saying to find the nonsense. As far as the Book of Abraham goes, I can sympathize with Apostle Dodo in that I don't know a lot of the particulars of what is being claimed (apparently the apologists don't either). However, I don't think what got "translated" was the word of God (unless "word of god" is changed to mean whatever Joseph Smith said).

[_Fence Sitter]

I listened to the whole of it, but don't understand the points made.

I kind of got the dates issue, but I'm totally lost on the woman/underwater bit. I've also never seen/heard of there being three versions of the alphabet by three different writers?

The Book of Abraham issues just continue to elude me and this video tended to confuse me even more verses learning something from it.

The Egyptian documents that Joseph Smith & Co. produced are a mess and are difficult to understand as a group. They were composed over various time periods, and include the translation documents for the actual Book of Abraham, documents showing what Joseph Smith & Co. thought were the numerical translation of particular glyphs, documents showing what Joseph Smith & Co thought was the literal translation of a particular glyph, documents showing how Joseph Smith & Co. would take a glyph and break it into pieces such that each individual part of the glyph had a meaning and then when you put the parts back together you could get a whole paragraph of meaning out of a single glyph. We also have documents that are just a bunch of copied Egyptian characters & hieroglyphics with notes in English how these are very important. For all of these documents there are various acronyms and abbreviations like GAEL, KEP, E A ( I had to put a space between "E" & "A" because Shades auto correct changes it to EA otherwise), EAG, MS, AB1 AB2 and so on which only further serve to confuse the issue. And many of these documents have have had multiple names and have been divided up different ways by different authors and labeled differently.

Probably the best treatment on this subject to date is Brian Hauglid's excellent but pricey A Textual History of the Book of Abraham. Much cheaper but in black and white and a paperback is The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papers. by Michael Marquardt. You can also find all the Book of Abraham and other Egyptian material on the Joseph Smith Papers Project website here.

There were three Egyptian alphabet documents produced.

There is this one, found here which was written primarily by Joseph Smith himself but about a third of it is in Oliver Cowdery's writing. It is called MS No.4 by Marquardt, KEPE 4 which is the original church designation, and EAJS which is what Hauglid calls it. (You can see why this is confusing when a single document can be referenced 3 or more different ways.)

The next one can be found here and is only in Oliver Cowdrey's writing. It has been called MS No. 5 by Marquardt, KEPE 5 which is the original church designation and EAOC by Hauglid.

The last one is here and is in W.W. Phelps handwriting. It has been called MS No. 3 by Marquardt, KEPE 3 the original church designation, and EAWP by Hauglid.

[_RockSlider]

Fence Sitter,
Thank you for that information.

Do you know why Dan seemed to focus for the most of that episode on those 3 characters, dealing with the woman and the underwater reference?

[_Fence Sitter]

Fence Sitter,
Thank you for that information.

Do you know why Dan seemed to focus for the most of that episode on those 3 characters, dealing with the woman and the underwater reference?

I have not seen the video, so no I don't.

[_Dan Vogel]

Fence Sitter,
Thank you for that information.

Do you know why Dan seemed to focus for the most of that episode on those 3 characters, dealing with the woman and the underwater reference?

I don't understand the question. As I said in the video, Gee said that part 1 of the Alphabets had nothing to do with the Book of Abraham: “The English renderings in the last column are not connected with the Book of Abraham ...” But the part in the Alphabets about Egypt being discovered by the daughter of Ham while it was still under water is mentioned in the Book of Abraham. However, the contexts are different. What was said about Katumin and her mother was later borrowed when Joseph Smith dictated his “translation” of the Book of Abraham.

[_kairos]

Dan

Your work is terrific !

My hope would be for you to debate Gee and KM but they seem to simply confuse and muddy up the waters because in doing so they hope No TBM will ever want to dig into this topic and lose his/her faith.i have heard KM talk about all the "bulleyes" Joseph Smith made whereas John Gee Seems to push the theory that the papyrus from which the Book of Abraham is translated is missing or destroyed.

I am sure RR and your work they understand but they have too much to lose To own up to the fact Joseph Smith did not translate from the papyri purchased from MC.

Keep up your very good work!

[_Shulem]

I would love to see you do a video presentation of the Facsimile No. 3 and provide details and commentary on how Joseph Smith's Explanations are so far removed from real Egyptology that there is no possible way to even connect them. Such a demonstration would prove entertaining and would be like hammering spikes in the coffin of Mormonism. The Facsimile No. 3 is the ultimate slam dunk and the gateway that leads to discrediting the Book of Abraham. Everything else is just fluff or a box of nails for the coffin.

I still welcome your opinion or input on the missing jackal snout which seems to have been removed from the original plate.

THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​

[_grindael]

BUMP... In case you missed this... (you shouldn't have)