Can the President pardon himself?

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_MeDotOrg
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Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _MeDotOrg »

The most imperial regent, Louis XIV, said L'etat c'est moi' ('I am the state'). Since the glow of the Sun King however, the trend has been away from governments where a single leader holds power over the state. The United States has always proudly declared that no man is above the law.

Until now, that is. Today Trump tweeted the following:

As has been stated by numerous legal scholars, I have the absolute right to PARDON myself, but why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong? In the meantime, the never ending Witch Hunt, led by 13 very Angry and Conflicted Democrats (& others) continues into the mid-terms!

Notice that Trump starts with the idea that he has the power to pardon himself, but quickly says he has no need to use it because he has done nothing wrong. Which begs the question: What if the President is charged doing something wrong? Can the President pardon himself if he, as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer, believes he did nothing wrong?

And then there is the simple declaration that he has the power to pardon himself. I would be shocked if any other President in our history has made such a claim. Certainly the Presidents who were impeached or who faced impeachment never made that argument. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but if Obama or Clinton made that argument, I would have worked to make sure they were not re-elected. Democracy is tied to the principle that people are entitled to equal rights under the law, and along side that is the idea that no man is above the law.

Perhaps Trump sees himself as the hero in an Ayn Rand novel, one of those guys with so much intellect, creativity and libido that they are not bound by conventions of the merely mortal proletariat. I could give a crap. No man is above the law.

And as soon as we start to believe otherwise this country is going down the tubes. I would have hoped that we would have finally found 'a bridge too far' for all Americans, but Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Huckabee Sanders seem willing to entertain the possibility that the President is above the law. If anyone had any doubts about Donald Trump's contempt for the rule of law, they should have ended today.
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_moksha
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Re: Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _moksha »

I have the absolute right to PARDON myself,...

Trump would be on a less shaky ground if he had just said, "I can get away with it". As the unscrupulous head of the unscrupulous party in power, who is going to actually stop him? Not the Supreme Court, and certainly not the military brass - many of whom would be serving in the Confederate Army if given a chance.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MeDot do you not have a sense of foreshadowing upon reading his claim? Like the man is for-sure-no-shit, planning his own CYA plan B strategy should he be charged with a crime?

He's putting it right out there, people.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _Res Ipsa »

That’s what it looks like to me. Time to dust off that old constitutional crisis thread?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_moksha
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Re: Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _moksha »

I imagine Trump could get his Evangelical supporters on board by declaring his divine right as President.
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_Xenophon
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Re: Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _Xenophon »

"Ted Cruz Holds a Staggering EIGHTEEN Second Silence Before Dodging on Trump’s Pardon Theory"

The absolute mental gymnastics being done by some to make a case for this would be impressive if it wasn't so dangerous. What happened to the GOP being the guys that meant to protect and preserve the Constitution?

ETA:
Res Ipsa wrote:That’s what it looks like to me. Time to dust off that old constitutional crisis thread?
At this rate you guys may have to sticky it :eek:
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_MeDotOrg
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`

Post by _MeDotOrg »

Jersey Girl wrote:MeDot do you not have a sense of foreshadowing upon reading his claim? Like the man is for-sure-no-shit, planning his own CYA plan B strategy should he be charged with a crime?

He's putting it right out there, people.

In trying to understand the context for making the statement, we have to accept that we don't know a lot of what is going on. Manafort could go to jail for witness tampering before he even goes to trial. Manafort's son-in-law just flipped. Trump's lawyer just had thousands of documents seized, and the initial report from the Special Master (love that term) has so far found 162 documents out of 292,000 that are privileged or personal. We cannot see the information behind those numbers, but it is pretty clear that whatever Cohen was doing, most of it was not protected by attorney-client privilege.

So given what has happened with Manafort and Cohen (and again what is happening is still inside a black box), I tend to think that his recent tweet about pardons is not hypothetical. Manafort to me is a particularly troubling case. Here's a guy with an ankle bracelet, hanging on by a thread, and he is still attempting to tamper with witnesses. Why has Manafort not flipped? That's a question that troubles me. Given is own character and relatively short tenure as the President's campaign manager, I don't think it is personal loyalty to the President. So if it is not loyalty, what? Given the unforgiving nature of the Russian Oligarchs to whom Manafort owes money, I think that is a more likely source of his motivation. I think it could very well end up that Manafort was in really deep with Russian Oligarchs during the campaign. How much Trump knew I don't know.

So between Cohen and Manafort, I think Trump's pardon tweet is probably a good indication of how worried he is right now. The biggest question for me is how many people will be willing to back the position of virtually unchecked Presidential power. While a lot of people have abandoned a lot of principles in the defense of Donald Trump, I certainly hope that the concept of self-pardoning would be beyond the pale for even many Trump supporters. (I would love to see a poll on how people feel about the President pardoning himself.) Besides being political suicide, a pardon would rip the political fabric of this country. Is Trump enough of a narcissist and a nihilist to do it? I don't know.
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization."
- Will Durant
"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
- Donald Trump
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
_Jersey Girl
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Re: `

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MeDotOrg wrote:Besides being political suicide, a pardon would rip the political fabric of this country. Is Trump enough of a narcissist and a nihilist to do it? I don't know.


I say, if he wants to committ political suicide who are we to say that he shouldn't?

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _Res Ipsa »

As long as he doesn’t take the rest of us with him.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Themis
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Re: Can the President pardon himself?

Post by _Themis »

Jersey Girl wrote:MeDot do you not have a sense of foreshadowing upon reading his claim? Like the man is ____, planning his own CYA plan B strategy should he be charged with a crime?

He's putting it right out there, people.


I agree that he seems to know it will probably happen and is setting up the idea that he can pardon himself.

Res Ipsa

As long as he doesn’t take the rest of us with him.


His character flaws are so severe everyone should worry about what he might be able to do, on the way out, if he sees impeachment is a done deal.
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