Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast

[_grindael]

Joseph could conjure him up at the drop of a hat when he wanted to give a "revelation", but when he was writing his history and NEEDED to get it right, where was he?

[_Kishkumen]

Now, I ask all the learned men who hear me, why the learned doctors who are preaching salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing. They account it blasphemy to contradict the idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. The reason is that they are unlearned but I am learned and know more than all the world put together—the Holy Ghost does, anyhow. If the Holy Ghost in me comprehends more than all the world, I will associate myself with it.

The real genius of Joseph Smith is that he discovered how much freedom there was to reason with ignoramuses about imaginary things. How wonderful he must have felt puffing up his chest and speaking with phony authority as he challenged people who were absent to refute his imagination. Good God. It is nothing but vacuous blustering from a snake-oil salesman.

[_Kishkumen]

Joseph could conjure him up at the drop of a hat when he wanted to give a "revelation", but when he was writing his history and NEEDED to get it right, where was he?

Once again, there is no there there. If he wants to believe or pretend that he is having conversations with God, I have no obligation to take him at his word, whether he is receiving a revelation in my presence or reporting one that happened years ago. I sure as hell am not going to believe the tall tales he left behind.

[_consiglieri]

He now rates two blistering podcasts highlighting how ugly his generation of apologetics is and how obsolete it is rapidly becoming in an enlightened internet age with many eyes upon him.

Soon to be three podcasts, since I have a part 2 in the works in which I will address Professor Peterson's attempted defense and the firestorm of controversy that has swirled around his initial article.

The working title is, "Eenie Meenie Minie Moe, Catch an Apologist by the Toe."

RFM

[_Physics Guy]

There is no really easy and obvious explanation of all the details about how the Book of Mormon appeared. Theories that could cover all the bases inevitably rely on speculations about weird things that could perhaps in principle have happened, but for which there is no evidence extant.

So I guess Peterson must really enjoy magic shows. He won't have faith to disbelieve that David Copperfield truly vanished the Statue of Liberty, because all the other explanations run into walls.

He's got that going for him, which is nice.

[_Shulem]

And that goes to my point that Mormon Apologists will go on and on about the different versions of the FV, and attribute it to the secular argument that Joseph was human and just couldn't remember everything. But then, they have all these wild claims of angels and God appearing and that the Holy Ghost is there to specifically HELP YOU REMEMBER THINGS, and yet, they are totally silent on that. The selective application of these wild supernatural claims is disingenuous and hypocritical.

Suppose for a moment that the First Vision is true and really happened and that the 1838 account accurately reflects the most information of that experience. If this were the case, Smith would have received his greatest lessons on the true nature of God and his theology would have already been advanced to the point that he could have given the King Follett discourse in 1832 instead of 1844. If the 1838 account were true then Smith would have known about the character of God and what kind of Being is God when he first organized the church in 1830! Section 1 of the Doctrine & Covenants would have revealed that the Father is a separate Person and has a body of flesh and bones just as he saw in the grove and that the Holy Spirit opened his eyes to that marvelous truth as God and Christ stood before him in bodily form in their full majesty.

But, as we know, this was not the case. Smith developed and amended his theology as time went on.

[_Shulem]

Where was the Holy Ghost when Joseph was trying to remember what age he was when HE SAW GOD???!!!

The Holy Ghost is not too good at remembering ages. He's only the 3rd member of the Godhead and doesn't even have a body, yet. Cut him some slack, for God's sake.

[_Shulem]

It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Excuse me, Mr. Smith! Why were you not preaching this theology back in 1830 when you first organized the church? You claimed to have seen the Father and Son in the grove of trees but said nothing about the Father being separate and having a tangible body of flesh and bones until years later. Here it is 1844 and now you're finally getting around to telling us this stuff? Sounds like you're making it up.

You're a false prophet, Mr. Smith and I rebuke you!

[_Shulem]

Where was the Holy Ghost when Joseph was trying to remember what age he was when HE SAW GOD???!!!

[_Kishkumen]

There is no really easy and obvious explanation of all the details about how the Book of Mormon appeared. Theories that could cover all the bases inevitably rely on speculations about weird things that could perhaps in principle have happened, but for which there is no evidence extant.

So I guess Peterson must really enjoy magic shows. He won't have faith to disbelieve that David Copperfield truly vanished the Statue of Liberty, because all the other explanations run into walls.

He's got that going for him, which is nice.

OK. I don’t see gullibility as a virtue, but maybe fairytales provide some psychological soothing?

In any case, the demand for a detailed description of the process whereby the Book of Mormon was fabricated and foisted on others is unnecessary. As you say, one does not have to explain how the illusion was created to know that it was an illusion. A modern magician is an ethical illusionist. Joseph Smith was a pious fraudster.