Rods, Cones, and Golden Plates

[_Analytics]

Do we know what time of day the eight witnesses saw the golden plates?

The faithful paintings always depict it as taking place in the woods in mid-afternoon. But what if the former treasurer digger chose to show them at night? After all, Joseph had his annual meetings with Moroni in the middle of the night, and it was dark when he finally retrieved the plates. Given that they were associated with the darkness of the night, would it have made sense to the eight witnesses that they would meet in the middle of the night to finally see them?

My point should be pretty obvious. If the witnesses are looking at some shoddy tin plates in near blackness, tin plates would have the appearance of gold--in near darkness, gold plates look just as dark and colorless as tin plates.

I don't recall ever hearing the middle-of-the-night theory for how the eight witnesses could have been fooled into thinking that tin plates were gold. But it seems so obvious now.

Is this a common theory? Or are there holes in it?

[_Meadowchik]

Who clearly claimed to have seen the plates uncovered with their physical eyes?

[_Analytics]

Who clearly claimed to have seen the plates uncovered with their physical eyes?

The statement of the eight witnesses claims that Joseph Smith "showed" them the plates and that they "saw" the engravings on them.

Granted, the statement is problematic. But if we take what it says at face value, showing the plates means showing them to somebody's physical eyes, and seeing the engraving means seeing them with physical eyes.

[_grindael]

I think the best and most accurate account is from Samuel H. Smith, given to a reporter in 1832, where he said,

Question-Where is Joseph Smith now or where is he supposed to be?
Answer-In the state of Ohio-town and county stated, but not taken down.
Q.-By what means did he discover the golden plates and who was with him when he made the discovery.
A.-The golden plates were discovered through the ministration of an angel of the Lord, by Joseph Smith-no one else was with him at the time of the discovery.
Q.-By whom was a fac simile of some part of the language and characters taken, and on what material.
A.-It was taken by Joseph Smith on paper from the original plates themselves.
Q.-By whom was this presented to Dr. Mitchell, and at what period?
A.-By Martin Harris, one of the witnesses who had seen the plates-do not exactly know at what time.
Q.-Is that fac simile, now in being, and if so where is it?
A.-It is, or it was in being-I have seen it.
Q.-In what manner was the interpretation, or translation made known, and by whom was it written?
A.-It was made known by the spirit of the Lord through the medium of the Urim and Thummim; and was written partly by Oliver Cowdery, and partly by Martin Harris.
Q.-What do you mean by Urim and Thummim?
A.-The same as were used by the prophets of old, which were two crystal stones, placed in bows something in the form of spectacles, which were found with the plates.
Q.-What became of the plates after the translation was made?
A.-They were delivered into the hands of the angel of the Lord by whom they were afterwards shown to the three witnesses, who have testified to that effect.
Q.-At what place was the translation made?
A.-Partly at Manchester, Ontario county, N.Y. where the plates were found, and partly on the banks of the Susquehannah river in Pennsylvania.
Q.-How many were present at the time and who?
A.-Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris-and several others at least part of the time whose names were mentioned but not taken down.
Q.-When were the plates seen by the eight who saw them, and who have testified to that fact; before they were translated, or since?
A.-They were seen at different times while they were in the hands of Joseph Smith and during the time of their translation.
Q.-Did they see the fac simile also, and if so, did they compare the fac simile with the plates to see if they agreed?
A.-They saw the fac simile also, but did not compare it with the plates to see whether it agreed or not.
Q.-Who is Mr. Anthony who saw the fac simile? is he still living, or not?
A.-He was a professor of languages in the city of New-York, but we do not know whether he is now living or not.
Q.-By what means was the spot made known to the men who travelled for the purpose, where the city is to be built?
A.-It was made known by the spirit of the Lord.
Q.-In what way?
A.-In answer to their prayers.
Q.-This is all poetry to me-was there any visible token that unbelievers could have either seen or heard?
A.-I do not know that there was-there probably was not.
Q.-Do the members of the new church, New-Jerusalem Church, Mount Zion, or by whatever name it is called, give up their property to be held in common, or not?
A.-They hold their property in common, and the land is divided out to each one in proportion to what he can cultivate, without any regard to what he put in.
Q.-What is the government of the church, and how are its officers appointed?
A.-The government is of the Lord. They have Elders, Deacons, and Stewards, who receive their appointments from the Lord, and are ordained by the officers for the time being.
Q.-Do the people elect their own officers?
A.-They do not.
Q.-To what sect of Christendom do they approximate the nearest in opinion in regard to a future state of being?
A.-I do not know, for I am not much acquainted with the opinions of other sects; they do not agree however with any.
Q.-Do they hold to a future punishment of the wicked, and if so, do they believe in the doctrine of endless misery?
A.-They hold to the punishment of the wicked in a future state; and those who are finally so unfortunate as to be cast off will be endlessly miserable.

Source: Boston Investigator 2 (August 10, 1832).

Interesting that they saw the "Anthon Transcript", but did not compare it to the plates... They were shown to the eight at different times ... and DURING THE TRANSLATION, which is very interesting... What's also interesting is that he says that the plates were given back to the angel, then shown to the three... but if the eight saw them while Joseph had them, THEY SAW THEM BEFORE THE THREE WITNESSES!

[_I have a question]

Here is an example of the state of apologetics on the witnesses to the golden plates, as demonstrated by Kiwi57.....

The question: From "Billy Shears"

When the local Palmyra printer John Gilbert was typesetting the first edition of the Book of Mormon and was typesetting the testimony of the three witnesses, Martin Harris happened to be in the room. Gilbert asked Harris one of the follow-up questions demanded by the witness statement. According to Gilbert, Gilbert asked "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" And Martin looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, "No, I saw them with a spiritual eye."

A follow-up question I’d have for the eight witnesses is what day and hour did this event actually take place? If the event took place at night and they examined the plates by the light of the fire, then tin plates might have the appearance of gold. Or maybe they “had the appearance of gold” and simultaneously had the appearance of tin--what I'm getting at is that if this event took place under starlight, tin and gold look equally dark and gray.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread
Mr Angry "Kiwi57" replies:

It was outdoors in the woods, during the day.

You seem to imagine that people who used metal currency regularly wouldn't be able to tell the difference between gold and a bit of tin reflecting the firelight. That's funny!

Billy:

How do you know it was during the day?

And how do you know that when they signed Joseph Smith's description that it had the "appearance" of gold they weren't implying that it looked exactly like a bit of tin reflecting firelight? And if it were at night, how would you know there was even a fire?

Angry Kiwi:

BS2: "How do you know it was during the day?"

Because Lucy Mack Smith said so.

Billy:

Kiwi57: Because Lucy Mack Smith said so.

Reference, please? I searched for what you were talking about, and found out that she said that that an ancient Nephite carried the plates to a place where the Smith family conducted their secret prayers and gave them to Joseph. That the eight witnesses then saw the plates there. The eight witnesses then went back to the house while Joseph stayed behind in the woods. Then the angel returned to receive the plates from Joseph. She then said, "We commenced holding meetings that night in the which we declared those facts that we knew to be true."

See: "Lucy Mack Smith, History, 1844–1845, Page [1], bk. 9," p. [1], bk. 9, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed January 8, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpape...

So it sounds like this happened at night. This is consistent with how Moroni typically made his appearances at night to talk about the plates and eventually deliver them.

Angry Kiwi:

BS2: "So it sounds like this happened at night."

No, it doesn't mean that. Last Saturday, I went shopping. That night we had fish for dinner. What time of the day did I go shopping?

They were in the woods, with no electric (or other) lighting available. Of course it was in the daytime.
BS2: "This is consistent with how Moroni typically made his appearances at night to talk about the plates and eventually deliver them."

What "typically?" Moroni visited Joseph at night in his room the first time. Subsequent interviews took place during the day. The Three Witnesses explicitly tell us that their experience - in the same woods - happened in the daytime. All of which is irrelevant anyway, since Moroni wasn't present for the experience of the Eight. Joseph showed them the plates. They handled them and examined the engravings. (By starlight?) Joseph stayed out in the woods while the others returned to the house. This was in June, when the sun typically sets close to 9pm at Palmyra. Later Joseph returned to the house. (With no street lamps to guide him.) Sometime later still that evening, they've got time to hold a meeting. When did it start, at midnight?

You seem to be trying every possible way to find an excuse to dismiss the testimonies of the witnesses. Nobody mentions what time it was when they saw the plates, so you leap to the default assumption that it was at night. How desperate are you, really?

*note that Mr Angry didn't provide the Lucy Mack reference Billy requested...
Billy:

Kiwi: They were in the woods, with no electric (or other) lighting available. Of course it was in the daytime.

Yes, I know that is what you assume.

Kiwi: What "typically?" Moroni visited Joseph at night in his room the first time....

And I thought the annual visits after that were more night visits. We know that when Joseph Smith went to actually dig up the plates for the first time on September 21 1827, it was midnight. (see https://www.lds.org/ensign/... )

Kiwi: All of which is irrelevant anyway, since Moroni wasn't present for the experience of the Eight...

According to Lucy, Moroni was lurking in the shadows. According to her, Moroni gave the plates to Joseph, Joseph showed the plates to the eight witnesses, and then Joseph gave the plates back to Moroni. All of that happened the same night (or possibly day).

Kiwi: They handled them and examined the engravings. (By starlight?)

Why not?

Kiwi: Later Joseph returned to the house. (With no street lamps to guide him.)

If he could dig up gold plates over on the Hill Cumorah at midnight (and dig for other treasure at midnight, like he allegedly did), I'm sure he could make it from their family's prayer sight to his house in the dark, too.

Kiwi: You seem to be trying every possible way to find an excuse to dismiss the testimonies of the witnesses. Nobody mentions what time it was when they saw the plates, so you leap to the default assumption that it was at night. How desperate are you, really?

You are the one leaping to the assumption that it happened during the day. All I'm saying is that I wish we could cross-examine the witnesses to make sure we fully understand their stories.

Their stories are problematic and fishy. There is little reason to take it at face value unless you have a religious predisposition to do so or are really gullible. I'm questioning the assumptions you are making because I'm taking the issue seriously. Do you want people to take this seriously or not?

Ouch!

Instead of coming to his compatriots rescue (you wouldn't want to be in a foxhole relying on Peterson to cover your back) in the comments section, to engage directly with Billy Shears, Dr Peterson instead posts a separate blog entry...

From one of my manuscripts:

According to David Whitmer, the quite distinct experience of the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon occurred one or two days after the experience of the Three.[1] Again, Lucy Mack Smith remembered the circumstances more than two decades later:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... esses.html
That's quite an interesting little introduction with the passive aggressive comment about Lucy being less credible because she was remembering things two decades after the fact. I wonder if Peterson applies that logic - of memory being less reliable over time, to his defences of the First Vision....

All the male part of the company, with my husband, Samuel, and Hyrum, retired to a place where the family were in the habit of offering up their secret devotions to God. They went to this place, because it had been revealed to Joseph that the plates would be carried thither by one of the ancient Nephites. Here it was, that those eight witnesses, whose names are recorded in the Book of Mormon, looked upon them and handled them. . . . The ensuing evening, we held a meeting, in which all the witnesses bore testimony to the facts, as stated above.[2]

Soon thereafter, all of the Eight—Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith—signed their names to a statement that has accompanied the testimony of the Three in every printed version of the Book of Mormon.

[1] See the Pratt and Smith interview.

[2] Lucy’s Book, 455-456, 457.

Let's wait and see if Billy turns up with some questions...

[_moksha]

Was it necessary for the angel to take the plates in case others wanted a look-see to confirm the story?

[_Dr Exiled]

Was it necessary for the angel to take the plates in case others wanted a look-see to confirm the story?

Great question and one that blows the plates story up. Why would God want to play hide and seek with the plates? Why translate it into Early Modern English? It seems if God wanted to convey a message to us, he would be more direct and make sure his words were communicated correctly.

[Guest]

Interesting that they saw the "Anthon Transcript", but did not compare it to the plates... They were shown to the eight at different times ... and DURING THE TRANSLATION, which is very interesting... What's also interesting is that he says that the plates were given back to the angel, then shown to the three... but if the eight saw them while Joseph had them, THEY SAW THEM BEFORE THE THREE WITNESSES!

Liars weave tangled webs just like spiders. The Book of Mormon and its pretended ancient language is garbage.

In 1844, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints published a broadside about the Book of Mormon called "The Stick of Joseph", which reprinted some "reformed Egyptian" characters that resemble those on the Anthon transcript

Photograph of what is believed to be the 1830 document known as the "Anthon Transcript" (Pure garbage)

[_Shulem]

Q.-When were the plates seen by the eight who saw them, and who have testified to that fact; before they were translated, or since?
A.-They were seen at different times while they were in the hands of Joseph Smith and during the time of their translation.
Q.-Did they see the fac simile also, and if so, did they compare the fac simile with the plates to see if they agreed?
A.-They saw the fac simile also, but did not compare it with the plates to see whether it agreed or not.

Didn't compare the Anthon Transcript (Facsimile) with the gold plates?

Hole in the script, I'd say. Simply unbelievable at every turn. They are liars. That's the web of Mormonism.

[Reflexzero]

You seem to imagine that people who used metal currency regularly wouldn't be able to tell the difference between gold and a bit of tin reflecting the firelight. That's funny!

for what it's worth, coming from an amateur numismatist:

A gold coin wasn’t something that the average person saw on a regular basis. In rural areas, businesses didn’t even see them with regularity; this is one of the reasons why Josh Tatum (a possible origin of the “just Joshing” idiom) was successful.

That being said, to this day, there is a thriving counterfeit market (largely from China) for bullion, and coins, and regular coin collectors and shops are fairly often taken by the fakes. Even back in the 19th century, cash registers were commonly manufactured with a stone slab. This was to tap silver coins on, as the sound was one of the best ways to tell if a silver coin wasn’t actually silver. By just looking at them, it can be difficult to spot (good) fakes without the use of a loop.





ETA:
Here's a fun one. Which of these are genuine gold coins, and which are fakes that contain little-to-no gold?