Rods, Cones, and Golden Plates

[_Analytics]

Was it necessary for the angel to take the plates in case others wanted a look-see to confirm the story?

Great question and one that blows the plates story up. Why would God want to play hide and seek with the plates? Why translate it into Early Modern English? It seems if God wanted to convey a message to us, he would be more direct and make sure his words were communicated correctly.

Exactly.

I don't really know if the following comment by Ralph Waldo Emerson was deliberately alluding to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, but it sure seems to be. In his essay Self-Reliance, Emerson said:

"The relations of the soul to the divine spirit are so pure, that it is profane to seek to interpose helps. It must be that when God speaketh he should communicate, not one thing, but all things; should fill the world with his voice; should scatter forth light, nature, time, souls, from the centre of the present thought; and new date and new create the whole. Whenever a mind is simple, and receives a divine wisdom, old things pass away,--means, teachers, texts, temples fall; it lives now, and absorbs past and future into the present hour. All things are made sacred by relation to it,--one as much as another. All things are dissolved to their centre by their cause, and, in the universal miracle, petty and particular miracles disappear. If, therefore, a man claims to know and speak of God, and carries you backward to the phraseology of some old mouldered nation in another country, in another world, believe him not."

[_Shulem]

The mind of Mormon God insults my intelligence. The web of Mormonism is so blatant to me that I'd have to lie to myself to accept and believe the lies. That's like looking up to the sun on a bright day and denying the sun is out and that there is no light illuminating the sky and landscape. I won't do that. I can't do that. Why? Because I'm not a liar. Neither do I embrace silly myths.

[_Symmachus]

This is a very interesting line you've discovered, Analytics. From the perspective of a non-believer, it would certainly explain how Joseph Smith could create a friendly ambience for what he was doing, whether or not he believed he was sincere about it. I seem to remember too that a lot of the scrying and treasure hunting happened at night, but I'm foggy on the details (I think Fawn Brodie mentioned them as happening at night). Grindael, do you know if that is true?

It would make sense, given that these were day laborers and farmers whose daylight hours would have been precious for other things, but of course that's just a non-farmer's assumption.

For believers, I can't see why it would matter one way or the other, so I don't understand Kiwi's anger. For the apologists, it's not enough that their version of things be credible—it's that everyone else's must not be. But if you believe in this stuff, why would you limit god to the operating only in daylight? Surely, the LORD of hosts and his angels can work their wonders in the night no less than the day.

ETA:
Here's a fun one. Which of these are genuine gold coins, and which are fakes that contain little-to-no gold?

What's the year on the eagle on the reverse?

[_Doctor Steuss]

ETA:
Here's a fun one. Which of these are genuine gold coins, and which are fakes that contain little-to-no gold?

What's the year on the eagle on the reverse?

Hi Symmachus. It's a 1796 Draped Bust Quarter Eagle (worth $2.50 at the time). Here's a picture of both the obverse, and reverse.



The US mint only produced 963 of this particular coin, which is one of the reasons it's a common counterfeit nowadays (in the rare instances that higher grade coins show up at auction, they regularly sell for over $1 million).

Just to add a little more to further the point -- that despite Kiwi's insinuation, the average person in the 1800s wouldn't be handling gold coins with anything resembling regularity -- it wasn't until 1821 that the US mint had produced over a million gold coins (the first of which were struck in 1795). Between that time, and the time that the witnesses saw the plates, an additional 200K(ish) gold coins were minted. So, about 1.25 million US gold coins had been minted when the witnesses saw the plates.

The population at the time was probably about 10 million. Based on that, there would have been about one gold coin to every 8 citizens (if my math isn't off). Remove the number of gold coins that would have left the US in global trade, the number held in banks, and the number hoarded, and the vast majority of Americans in the early 1800s had probably never even seen a gold coin from a distance. Believing that they had a familiarity with precious metals (in particular, gold) because of its use in coinage, doesn't hold water.

Even into the mid 1800s, there were states and territories that flirted with minting their own gold coins; partially because federal coins weren't numerous enough to meet demand. Even the Mormons felt the need to mint their own gold coins.

[_Fence Sitter]

For a really good overall view of the 19th century monetary system that focuses on counterfeiting, which was driven by the lack of legitimate specie, see A Nation of Counterfeiters: Capitalists, Con Men, and the Making of the United States by Stephen Mihm.

It only has a couple of pages on the Kirtland bank fiasco but I did find this passage about Nauvoo interesting.

Counterfeiters associated with the Mormon settlement at Nauvoo, Illinois, for example, attracted condemnation from their neighbors in the 1840's. The Mormons, who had established an autonomous state-within-a-state at Nauvoo, probably tolerated counterfeiters living in their midst, and may well have had a hand in manufacturing bogus coin themselves. The attraction to counterfeiters of highly autonomous Nauvoo was understandable; moreover, the Mormon had been accused of counterfeiting in the past, as well as other experiments that bordered on counterfeiting, including the Kirtland Bank debacle. The U.S. District Court eventually indicted a number of church elders for counterfeiting coin, although the Mormons left for Utah before any arrests could be made.

[_grindael]

The digs took place mostly at night. There were magickal rituals that they abided by, etc. But there are a lot of searches that took place during the day. I think there were different criteria for searches... but think about it, it was always a scam, not one of the "peepers" ever thought they could find treasure, but they wanted to dupe others to make some money... What better time to dig, than at night, with the atmosphere, the chance for things to go wrong, hard to see, etc. "Oh my, you didn't do everything exactly right and the guardian came and drug the chest further into the ground, but didn't you see the edge of it rise to the surface, I saw it in the moonlight"... blah, blah, blah... Smith fooled Josiah Stowell with a neat trick, he buried a feather near a stump and said that he saw in his stone a chest of treasure and it had a feather on top of the lid. Stowell dug, and found the feather, and Joseph told him the chest had sunk. But Stowell was all in amazement because just as Jo said, there was a feather!

[_Analytics]

I think the best and most accurate account is from Samuel H. Smith, given to a reporter in 1832, where he said...

What's remarkable about this is how blatantly this account contradicts Lucy Mack Smith's account. According to her, the eight were shown the plates in a single event on a specific day (or night?). Why would their two accounts be so different? It implies that at least one person felt at liberty to make things up. But why would any of them feel at liberty to make up stories if the underlying events were true?

Lucy's account can be found here:

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/lucys-book-03/

This link compares what Lucy actually wrote in 1845 to what ended up being published in 1853. The difference might be significant with the particular story.

From Lucy's original 1845 manuscript, she said, "After the witnesses returned to the house the Angel again made his appearance to Joseph and received the plates from his hands. We commenced holding meetings that night in the which we declared those facts that we knew to be true."

This seems to indicate, (or at least leaves open the possibility) that it was in fact at night when they saw the plates in the grove.

But in the 1853 version of Lucy's Book, this was fleshed out and clarified (or whitewashed?) to read:

"After these witnesses returned to the house, the angel again made his appearance to Joseph, at which time Joseph delivered up the plates into the angel’s hands. The ensuing evening, we held a meeting, in which all the witnesses bore testimony to the facts, as stated above; and all of our family, even to Don Carlos, who was but fourteen years of age, testified of the truth of the Latter-day Dispensation—that it was then ushered in."

Who is responsible for these changes? Did Lucy sign-off on the changes?

[_Maksutov]

Seances--which were also alleged communications with spirits and their materializations--often made use of darkness. Note that New York was the birthplace of American spiritualism, which often made use of seances.