grindael question?

[_Madison54]

One thing that so many members are not aware of is that Lucy lost FOUR sons in Nauvoo.

Many don't even know that Don Carlos or Samuel existed let alone that they were possibly killed. They may vaguely know their names and that they were Joseph's brothers. More would know about Samuel, but aren't really aware of how he died. Members only mourn the loss of Hyrum and Joseph. But not much is even mentioned about Don Carlos or Samuel (who died about a month after Joseph and Hyrum did).

[_Fence Sitter]

I thought Samuel Smith's death was the one people thought was suspicious, because he would have been a strong contender to replace Joseph Smith?

[_Madison54]

I thought Samuel Smith's death was the one people thought was suspicious, because he would have been a strong contender to replace Joseph Smith?

Most definitely (and several stated they believed he was poisoned).

But, with the reading I did....I think Don Carlos's death was also suspcious (timing and how Thompson also died within weeks and they'd gone against Bennett and posted the truth about him in their newspaper). Bennett also stated that he poisoned Don Carlos (I'll try to find the quote, maybe I read that in Quinn's material). I don't know if he was telling the truth or just taunting Joseph, but it does make one wonder.

Also there's something in William Clayton's journal about Thompson's death (If I recall correctly) and also William Law's statements (posted above).

ETA:

Here's what William Clayton wrote:

"Friday, June 23, 1843
This A.M. Prest J. [Joseph Smith] took me and conversed considerable concerning some delicate matters. said E [Emma] wanted to lay a snare for me. He told me last night of this and said he had felt troubled. He said E had treated him coldly & badly since I came and he knew she was disposed to be revenged on him for some things she thought if he would indulge himself she would too. He cautioned me very kindly for which I felt thankful.

He said Thompson professed great friendship for him but he gave way to temptation & had to die. Also bro Knight he gave him one but he went to loose conduct and he could not save him. Also B.Y. had transgressed his covenant & he pled with the Lord to spare him this end and he did so. Other wise he would have died."

(Now the timing of Vinson Knight's death and circumstances are a whole other story....all very interesting too).

[_Dr. Shades]

He said Thompson professed great friendship for him but he gave way to temptation & had to die.

In that case, it sounds like Joseph directed Bennett to poison Thompson. Your thoughts?

[_Madison54]

He said Thompson professed great friendship for him but he gave way to temptation & had to die.

In that case, it sounds like Joseph directed Bennett to poison Thompson. Your thoughts?

I agree, it's odd. So, were they both poisoned (Don Carlos and Thompson)? And by the same person? I think Bennett was already on the outs by then (If I recall correctly, Joseph had excommunicated him just prior to this).

I'm not sure that Joseph would have poisoned his own brother. I hope he would not have gone that far to protect himself (it was early on when he was being very secretive about polygamy when Don Carlos died and not that many had even been brought into the "inner group" yet). It's obvious Don Carlos had heard something though when you read his quote above and he names Joseph.

One other tidbit is that Thompson's wife was Hyrum's wife's sister. Hyrum married her after Thompson's death (making her his plural wife).

[_Dr. Shades]

I'm not sure that Joseph would have poisoned his own brother.

He had a strong motive: He wanted his brother's wife, as evidenced by the fact that he actually got her very soon afterward.

[_Markk]

Hundreds of women had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith after he died, most of which happened in Salt Lake City. Even one of Brigham Young's living wives Augusta Cobb wanted to have herself sealed to Joseph Smith after she died.

Hey Fence,

Specifically though, in regards to his actual "real" wives...was this just a formality, or the real deal. In other words, was he just more or less married to them for time the first time around, and the later sealing was the evolution of the Temple Ceremony?

Do we have anything in the way of paper work, other than journals, that verify the original marriages or sealing. If they were one in the same, as they seem to be, then the later sealing is was what would cement it as an eternal marriage?

When were the terms for "Time"..."Time and Eternity".. and "Eternity," introduced?

Does that make any sense?

[_Madison54]

I'm not sure that Joseph would have poisoned his own brother.

He had a strong motive: He wanted his brother's wife, as evidenced by the fact that he actually got her very soon afterward.

True. I don't know of course and anything is possible. I just hate to think that Joseph would have sunk that low (to kill his own brother).

[_Fence Sitter]

Hundreds of women had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith after he died, most of which happened in Salt Lake City. Even one of Brigham Young's living wives Augusta Cobb wanted to have herself sealed to Joseph Smith after she died.

Hey Fence,

Specifically though, in regards to his actual "real" wives...was this just a formality, or the real deal. In other words, was he just more or less married to them for time the first time around, and the later sealing was the evolution of the Temple Ceremony?

Do we have anything in the way of paper work, other than journals, that verify the original marriages or sealing. If they were one in the same, as they seem to be, then the later sealing is was what would cement it as an eternal marriage?

When were the terms for "Time"..."Time and Eternity".. and "Eternity," introduced?

Does that make any sense?

Mormons don't know what those terms mean now, let alone back then. Any explanations we put together now for what they thought they were doing then are just guesswork based on guesswork. Terms like "eternal marriage" and "sealing" are just feel good catch phrases made to make the faithful masses think they are part of something important, sort of like wearing a MAGA hat. Joseph Smith, like Trump, had a unique ability to make imaginary things look really important to gullible followers. A marriage for "Time and Eternity"" is worth about as much as a promise from Kim Jon Un.

As far as your paperwork question goes, I recommend these three books edited by Anderson & Bergera.

Joseph Smith's Quorum of the Anointed, 1842-1845: A Documentary History.
The Nauvoo Endowment Companies, 1845-1846: A Documentary History
and,
Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000: A Documentary History

I admit to not having read them due to costs and time. Also they are more of a reference book than a narrative. But they do seem to have the kind of information you are asking about. From the descriptions:

In this companion volume to The Nauvoo Endowment Companies and The Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000: A Documentary History, the editors have assembled all available primary references to the Anointed Quorum and its regular gatherings, both in the Red Brick Store and elsewhere (women were initially washed and anointed in Emma Smith’s bedroom and then escorted to the store) prior to the opening of the Nauvoo Temple. The sources include excerpts from the diaries of William Clayton, Joseph Fielding, Zina D. H. Jacobs, Heber C. Kimball, John Taylor, Willard Richards, George A. Smith, Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, and Brigham Young; autobiographies and reminiscences by Joseph C. Kingsbury, George Miller, and Mercy Fielding Thompson; letters from Vilate Kimball and Lucius N. Scoville; the Manuscript History of Brigham Young; General Record of the Seventies, Book B; Bathsheba W. Smith’s unedited testimony from the 1892 Temple Lot Case; other manuscripts such as the Historian’s Office Journal and “Meetings of Anointed Quorum”; and published records such as the History of the Church, Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate and Times and Seasons

The sources extracted in this companion volume to Joseph Smith’s Quorum of the Anointed and The Development of LDS Temple Worship, include original temple ledger books and summaries of data compiled by early church scribes, including the “Book of Anointings”; “Book of Adoptions”; “Book of Proxey [sic]”; “General Record of the Seventies, Book B”; and William Clayton’s diary kept for Heber C. Kimball; as well as diary entries from Thomas Bullock, William Hyde, George Laub, Newel Knight, Franklin D. Richards, Abraham Owen Smoot, Erastus Snow, Hosea Stout, and others; and the autobiographies of Harrison Burgess, Rhoda Ann Fullmer, Joseph Holbrook, Joseph Hovey, Norton Jacob, Noah Packard, George Albert Smith, John Spiers, Nancy Ann Wilson, and others

[_Markk]

Hundreds of women had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith after he died, most of which happened in Salt Lake City. Even one of Brigham Young's living wives Augusta Cobb wanted to have herself sealed to Joseph Smith after she died.

Hey Fence,

Specifically though, in regards to his actual "real" wives...was this just a formality, or the real deal. In other words, was he just more or less married to them for time the first time around, and the later sealing was the evolution of the Temple Ceremony?

Do we have anything in the way of paper work, other than journals, that verify the original marriages or sealing. If they were one in the same, as they seem to be, then the later sealing is was what would cement it as an eternal marriage?

When were the terms for "Time"..."Time and Eternity".. and "Eternity," introduced?

Does that make any sense?

Mormons don't know what those terms mean now, let alone back then. Any explanations we put together now for what they thought they were doing then are just guesswork based on guesswork. Terms like "eternal marriage" and "sealing" are just feel good catch phrases made to make the faithful masses think they are part of something important, sort of like wearing a MAGA hat. Joseph Smith, like Trump, had a unique ability to make imaginary things look really important to gullible followers. A marriage for "Time and Eternity"" is worth about as much as a promise from Kim Jon Un.

As far as your paperwork question goes, I recommend these three books edited by Anderson & Bergera.

Joseph Smith's Quorum of the Anointed, 1842-1845: A Documentary History.
The Nauvoo Endowment Companies, 1845-1846: A Documentary History
and,
Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000: A Documentary History

I admit to not having read them due to costs and time. Also they are more of a reference book than a narrative. But they do seem to have the kind of information you are asking about. From the descriptions:

In this companion volume to The Nauvoo Endowment Companies and The Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000: A Documentary History, the editors have assembled all available primary references to the Anointed Quorum and its regular gatherings, both in the Red Brick Store and elsewhere (women were initially washed and anointed in Emma Smith’s bedroom and then escorted to the store) prior to the opening of the Nauvoo Temple. The sources include excerpts from the diaries of William Clayton, Joseph Fielding, Zina D. H. Jacobs, Heber C. Kimball, John Taylor, Willard Richards, George A. Smith, Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, and Brigham Young; autobiographies and reminiscences by Joseph C. Kingsbury, George Miller, and Mercy Fielding Thompson; letters from Vilate Kimball and Lucius N. Scoville; the Manuscript History of Brigham Young; General Record of the Seventies, Book B; Bathsheba W. Smith’s unedited testimony from the 1892 Temple Lot Case; other manuscripts such as the Historian’s Office Journal and “Meetings of Anointed Quorum”; and published records such as the History of the Church, Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate and Times and Seasons

The sources extracted in this companion volume to Joseph Smith’s Quorum of the Anointed and The Development of LDS Temple Worship, include original temple ledger books and summaries of data compiled by early church scribes, including the “Book of Anointings”; “Book of Adoptions”; “Book of Proxey [sic]”; “General Record of the Seventies, Book B”; and William Clayton’s diary kept for Heber C. Kimball; as well as diary entries from Thomas Bullock, William Hyde, George Laub, Newel Knight, Franklin D. Richards, Abraham Owen Smoot, Erastus Snow, Hosea Stout, and others; and the autobiographies of Harrison Burgess, Rhoda Ann Fullmer, Joseph Holbrook, Joseph Hovey, Norton Jacob, Noah Packard, George Albert Smith, John Spiers, Nancy Ann Wilson, and others

Maga Hat and Joseph Smith's teachings...wow