Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

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_Gadianton
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Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Gadianton »

over at you know where a post went up a few days ago recognizing the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, or Joseph Smith's "last gun battle" as described in the comment section, depending on how you look at it. The principle staff writer quotes Jeffery Holland on Joseph Smith:

Holland wrote:Not everything in life is so black and white, but the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and its keystone role in our religion seem to be exactly that. Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was....No, nor would he be entitled to be considered a great teacher, a quintessential American religious leader, or the creator of great devotional literature. If he had lied...,


...then what? Presumably, Holland would more or less agree with the staff writer's own "trilemma" view, but nonetheless, the staff writer wields Joseph Fielding Smith's legendary pair of scissors such that the reader would never know what the alternative is, exactly, for Elder Holland.

One shouldn't lob slow pitches like that with Billy Shears around.

Billy Shears wrote:I can't tell if this post is opposed to thinking about Joseph Smith in black-or-white terms or is in favor of looking at him that way. According to what Jeffrey R. Holland said in the ellipsesed-out section of the quote you provided, "Joseph Smith must be accepted either as a prophet of God or else as a charlatan of the first order."

When the leaders of the Church insist Joseph Smith be thought of in black-or-white terms, you shouldn't feel too indignant when non-believers comply.


Ouch!

The apologists trip over themselves responding, but what can you possibly say to that?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Lemmie
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Lemmie »

Kiwi57 > Billy Shears • 2 days ago

[shears] "When the leaders of the Church insist Joseph Smith be thought of in black-or-white terms, you shouldn't feel too indignant when non-believers comply."

But we've got every right to be indignant when non-believers (or counter-believers) pretend to comply, but then slyly substitute their own criteria when they think no-one is looking.


Billy Shears > Kiwi57 • a day ago

You have the right to be as indignant as you want to about anything you want to be upset about. After all, they are your own emotions--why should I care? But the choice to be indignant about non-believers merely pretending to think Joseph Smith was a charlatan of the first order seems weird.

:lol: :lol:
_Lemmie
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Lemmie »

B. Wilson:

The black and white description by Elder Holland refers to Joseph religious claims, and, even if false, claiming to see God and translating a book by the gift and power of God are not sufficient excuse an illegal capture and execution. Nor would Joseph's claims, even if false, excuse the execution of his brother, and the repeated expulsion of his followers from various locations and at least two attempted genocides.


--
Billy Shears > B. Wilson • a day ago

You are conflating two different issues. Elder Holland says that if you don't accept Joseph Smith's religious claims then you must regard him as a charlatan in the first order. I think the black-or-white attitude he is promoting is unfortunate.

--
B. Wilson > Billy Shears • a day ago

You are welcome to your opinion, and there often is a great distance between 1 and 0. Let me offer another groups of people, by far the biggest group, those who have not considered Joseph's religious claims at all. Many readily admit to knowing little about the origins of the church, and yet have strong opinions based on strong prior assumptions.

Uh-oh. B. Wilson is backing himself into an unfortunate corner here.
_Gadianton
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Gadianton »

that was a good response to Kiwi. lol. But hey, at least Kiwi tried. Midgley, in contrast, noticed that Gemli up-voted Billy's comment and so went on a "birds of a feather" tirade. Even though Mr. M slavishly up-votes every last post of DCPs.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Billy Shears and Gemli pretty much have their way over at SeN. Their patience and professionalism offer a stark contrast to SeN’s crude and profane atmosphere.

For them it’s like shooting angry and vulgar fish in a barrel.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Gadianton
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Gadianton »

Gemli should get an up-vote for this one:

Sam wrote:So you're admitting you need religion in order to have a purpose in life?

Gemli wrote:Yes, just like I need poison ivy to have a purpose for calamine lotion.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Physics Guy
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Physics Guy »

Heh. The calamine lotion one is a zinger but it has the serious point that in religious messages that are supposed to be good news, all too often the good news is only actually good if you've first bought the bad news.

On the other hand everyone gets some serious bad news eventually, religious or not. I was in the Canadian analog of the National Guard for a few years, years ago now. One time they held a week-long field exercise in a training area where poison ivy grew like a cash crop. Guys got cases so bad they had to be sent home swaddled like mummies in bandages, and the stuff spread like a plague. Looking out from my command post at the thinning ranks each morning was eery. It was like the Black Death apart from the Death.

At first some guys said they were fine, they didn't react to poison ivy. Even if you haven't reacted to poison ivy before, however, increased exposure can trigger sensitivity. There was so much poison ivy around there that almost everyone got it eventually.

In conclusion, poison ivy is bad.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Meadowchik
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Meadowchik »

Very reminiscent of Moroni's challenge.

Don't be mad at people who try it and witness of it having bad fruits.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Gadianton wrote:Gemli should get an up-vote for this one:

Sam wrote:So you're admitting you need religion in order to have a purpose in life?

Gemli wrote:Yes, just like I need poison ivy to have a purpose for calamine lotion.


Another poster in response:

Which actually explains a lot. People are here, sharing information and insights and happy with their lives. You come along and try to convince them that religion poisons everything and that they have a bad case of poison ivy. But we are not itching. No redness. No irritation.

Our beliefs are a source of joy and peace and strength. Having someone to argue with is not a requirement for our lives to have meaning.

So you can see why we would not give up what we have in exchange for what you have: Despair when someone dies because there is no hope of ever seeing them again. Indignation at the unfairness and injustice of the world--because if there is no God and no life after death, whoever gets away with evil in this life never has to answer to justice. No divine purpose. No divine intervention. No answers to prayers. No real way to start over with a clean slate when we have done wrong or been wronged. No hope.


It goes back and forth, doesn't it?

Regards,
MG
_Lemmie
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Re: Billy Shears owns the apologists on Joseph Smith

Post by _Lemmie »

Gadianton wrote:Gemli should get an up-vote for this one:

Sam wrote:So you're admitting you need religion in order to have a purpose in life?

Gemli wrote:Yes, just like I need poison ivy to have a purpose for calamine lotion.

Bottom line, having a purpose in life doesn't require religion!
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