Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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tapirrider
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by tapirrider »

ko9s wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:04 am
At a minimum, this lends a lot of credibility to President Nelson's story.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Tom »

Thank you, ko9s. If you have a copy of or access to From Heart to Heart: An Autobiography, it would helpful to know what the book says about the incident.

"Second incident occurred Nov. 11, 1976 involving Piper PA 31 N74985. Pilot experienced rough engine on scheduled flight between Salt Lake City and St. George. 3 passengers on board. Engine was feathered and precautionary landing made at Delta, Utah, per instructions in company manual. Investigation revealed cylinder base studs sheered. As result of occurrence Sky West change maintenance procedures by checking torque studs at each 100 hour inspection. No damage to aircraft. No injuries to crew or passengers."

For reference, I quote various accounts below.
Tom wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:47 pm

2021: “I have had some unforgettable moments while traveling. One occurred years ago while flying to the inauguration of a university president, where I was to offer the invocation. It was a short flight in a small, two-engine plane. We were halfway to our destination, when the right engine suddenly exploded, spewing flaming fuel all over the right side of the plane. The plane was on fire, careening to the earth in a spiral dive. I expected to die. Miraculously, the dive extinguished the fire. The pilot was able to restore power to the other engine and make a safe landing. And I actually made it to the inauguration on time. Throughout that dramatic, unexpected experience, I was surprisingly calm. My entire life flashed before me. While approaching what seemed to be certain death, I was at peace. I knew my wife and I were sealed to each other eternally, and our children were sealed to us. Thanks to the Lord, I knew we would be together again. I was at peace, ready to meet my Maker.”

Source: “The Peace and Hope of Easter: President Russell M. Nelson Palm Sunday Invitation,” 00:00:16-00:01:42, https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ion-208004.


2019a: “Speaking in Spanish, Church President Russell M. Nelson told of the time several years ago when he and others aboard a small plane survived the explosion of one of the plane’s engines, the plane’s ensuing fire and sharp nosedive toward the likely death of all aboard, and then the pilot’s miraculous emergency landing in a field after the speed of the dive extinguished the fire.

President Nelson told the Argentinian Saints of the unusual tranquility he felt as the plane spiraled toward the earth and some aboard shouted in fear of what was ahead. The source of his peace, he said, was his faith and the death-transcending power of the Christ-focused worship done in the Church’s temples. The Church teaches that these temple rites connect families together forever.

‘Part of the tranquility I felt as death approached came from my knowledge of the gospel,’ the 94-year-old prophet told the Saints gathered at Tecnópolis Arena. ‘I was falling to my death. I was surprised that I was not afraid to die, I remained calm. Why? Because I knew that my wife [Dantzel, who died in 2005] and I had married in the temple. We had been eternally sealed to each other and our 10 precious children. I realized that our marriage in the temple was more important than any other achievement of my life. Temple clothes were more important than any other uniform I had worn. The temple covenants were more important than any other commitments we had made.’”

Source: “Now Is the Time to Choose Christ, Prophet Tells Argentinian Saints,” Aug. 28, 2019, https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ntina-2019.


2019b: “While speaking to the members of the Church in Uruguay in Spanish during the devotional, President Nelson recalled a time in his life when the airplane in which he was traveling almost spiraled to the ground.

But the plane did not crash and President Nelson’s life was preserved for a season. ‘With that time, we have the privilege to work, live, love and choose,’ he said.”

Source: Sarah Jane Weaver, “‘Live, love and choose’: President Nelson looks ahead to the future of the Church in Uruguay,” Church News, Aug. 9, 2019, https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ies-156122.


2019c: “On November 12, 1976, Russell Nelson had boarded a commuter plane in Salt Lake City to fly the quick route to St. George, Utah, where he was to give the invocation at the inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr as the president of Dixie College.

It was a short hop of less than an hour in a small, two-engine propeller plane. Only four passengers were on board. The pilot had just announced that they were halfway to St. George when the engine on the right wing exploded, spewing oil all over the right side of the aircraft and then bursting into flames. In an attempt to douse the flames, the pilot turned the fuel off, causing the small plane to go suddenly into a free fall death spiral.

The woman across the aisle from Russell began to scream hysterically. But Russell felt calm. “It was the most amazing thing,” he said. ‘I thought, ‘My wife and I are sealed. Our children are sealed to us. I’ve honored my covenants. I’ll meet my ancestors and go on to a glorious resurrection.’
He was, however, impressed with how quickly and comprehensively the mind can work. ‘It’s true, your life does flash before you. I had a bright recollection and perfect remembrance of my whole life. One major thought was that all of the framed awards and honors on my wall, the various clothes I’d worn — tuxedos and uniforms and doctoral robes — didn’t mean anything. What mattered was that I had my garments on and had been faithful to the covenants I’d made in the temple. I knew I was going to die, but I knew I would be fine.’

Miraculously, the free fall extinguished the fire, and, in the nick of time, the pilot was able to start the left engine, regain control of the plane, and guide it to an emergency landing in a farmer’s field not far from Delta, Utah. Everyone walked away from the incident unharmed. Another plane was dispatched, and Russell made it to St. George in time to give the invocation.”

Source: Sheri Dew, Insights from a Prophet’s Life: Russell M. Nelson (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2019).


2018a: “President Nelson said life has taught him that ‘the honors of men, exhilarating as they may seem at the time, fade into oblivion compared to what the Lord has in store for covenant-keeping children—the supernal gift of eternal life. That’s the greatest of all of God’s gifts.’

This came clearly into focus years ago as President Nelson was traveling with four passengers on a flight from Salt Lake City to St. George Utah; during the flight, one of the two engines exploded, sending the small plane into a downward spiral.

President Nelson said he felt strangely calm. ‘Events of my life rapidly flashed before me. I thought about all the framed degrees, awards, and honors on my office wall and the various uniforms, tuxedos, and doctoral robes that I’d worn in my life.’

In his dying moments those honors meant nothing to him. What did matter was his wife and children—to whom he was sealed in the holy temple.

‘Miraculously, the free fall extinguished the flames,’ he said.”

Source: Sarah Jane Weaver, “President Nelson Shares 5 ‘Lessons Life Has Taught Me’ with 49,000 in Safeco Field,” Church News, Sep. 16, 2018, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... d?lang=eng.


2018b: “He [Nelson] shared an experience from traveling on a small plane. One of the engines caught fire and exploded, sending the aircraft into a spiral dive. Many of the passengers began screaming in fear.

But then a miracle happened. The speed of the fall extinguished the fire and the plane was able to land safely. President Nelson said he expected to die at that moment. But he was not afraid. He remained calm.

‘I knew my wife and I had married in the temple. We were sealed to each other and to our 10 beautiful children. I realized that our temple marriage was more important than any other achievement in my life.’”

Source: Jason Swensen, “President Nelson delivers historic message to Dominican Latter-day Saints in Spanish,” Church News, Sep. 3, 2018,
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... anish-8931.


2011: “I was in a small airplane and all of the sudden the engine on the wing caught fire. It exploded and burning oil was poured all over the right side of the airplane and we started to dive toward the earth. We were spinning down to our death.

Oh, this woman across the aisle, I just was so sorry for her. She was just absolutely uncontrollably hysterical. And I was calm. I was totally calm, even though I knew I was going down to my death. I was ready to meet my Maker.

We didn't crash. We didn’t die. The spiral dive extinguished the flame. The pilot got control and started the other engine up. We made an emergency landing out in a field. But I thought, through that experience, if you've got faith, you can handle difficulties knowing that with any true perspective that all will be well.”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, “Men’s Hearts Shall Fail Them,” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... 1?lang=eng; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMwKxmTLaCs.


2006: “Those who have lived to tell the tale about a brush with violent death often recount the horror of knowing they were about to die, as did a woman on a small plane with Elder Nelson several years ago. One of the engines blew up and the plane caught fire, sending it into a steep dive as they were en route from Salt Lake City to St. George.

In the few seconds that passed before the pilot was able to shut off the fuel line and extinguish the flames, Elder Nelson recalls that his entire life passed through his mind, amid the hysterical screams from the woman in the next seat. ‘I thought of the academic regalia, the tuxedos and awards banquets,’ and how insignificant it all seemed, he said, adding that an overwhelming feeling of calm came over him.

What mattered in that moment were his life choices, he said — temple ordinances he had participated in, including marriage to his wife, and the deep assurance that though she would become a widow, she would be taken care of financially and they would be reunited after death.
As it turned out, the plane made a safe, emergency landing and he would live to see his wife, Dantzel White Nelson, die first, in February 2005.”

Source: Carrie A. Moore, “Death is part of life, ex-surgeon says,” Deseret News, Apr. 15, 2006, https://www.deseret.com/2006/4/15/19948 ... rgeon-says.


2004: “Elder Nelson spoke of a harrowing trip he once made on a small airplane. One of the plane's motors exploded an hour after take-off, sending the aircraft into a spiral dive. The dive fortuitously doused the fire sparked by the explosion and the pilot was able to regain control and land the plane safely.

Elder Nelson said he had expected to die inside that distressed plane. But he had lived a life of gospel harmony and felt prepared to meet eternal life. "I was surprised that I was not afraid to die. I remained calm. Why? I knew that my wife and I had been sealed in the temple. We had been sealed eternally to each other and to our 10 precious children.’”

Source: Jason Swensen, “Gospel principles vital to correct living,” Church News, Sep. 17, 2004, https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/ ... ving-94995.


2003: “The imminent prospect of death places in bold relief the things that matter most in life. Elder Nelson related just such an experience he had November 12, 1976. ‘I was in an airplane going from Salt Lake City to St. George to participate in a function at Dixie College. We were in one of those small commuter airplanes. There were about six passengers in it. The pilot had just announced that we were over the halfway point between Salt Lake City and St. George—we were past the point of no return. I thought, 'Well, that's a weird announcement to make.'

‘Shortly after that, the engine on the right wing of the airplane burst open in flames, spewing oil all over the right side of the plane. The propeller became starkly still and the whole engine was on fire. We then went into a dive earthward. I assumed that my life was going to be terminated right then and there.

‘The poor lady across the aisle from me was in absolute hysterics. She was right there where the flames were the brightest. But the pilot had turned off the ignition that fed more gas into the fire and had purposely been in a steep dive hoping that the flames might be extinguished, which was what happened. Then, with the power still left in the other propeller—which he then turned on just as we were about ready to have our moment of impact—he was able to glide us, following a highway, until we could make an emergency landing.’

"I'm pleased to report that I was really prepared. I knew I was facing death and I was calm. I knew that the most important thing I had ever done was to marry Dantzel White in the temple on August 31—that all of the children that have come into our home were born in the covenant—all faithful; and I was ready to die.’2 [2. Russell M. Nelson, “A Call to Serve,” address at the University of Utah Salt Lake Institute of Religion, 1 [sic] March 1985.].”

Source: Spencer J. Condie, Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2003).


1995: “I remember vividly an experience I had as a passenger in a small two-propeller airplane. One of the engines suddenly burst open and caught on fire. The propeller of the flaming engine was starkly stilled. As we plummeted in a steep spiral dive toward the earth, I expected to die. Some of the passengers screamed in hysterical panic. Miraculously, the precipitous dive extinguished the flames. Then, by starting up the other engine, the pilot was able to stabilize the plane and bring us down safely.

Throughout that ordeal, though I felt that sudden death was coming, my paramount feeling was that I was not afraid to die. I remember a sense of returning home to meet ancestors for whom I had done temple work. I remember my deep sense of gratitude that my sweetheart and I had been sealed eternally to each other and to our children born and reared in the covenant. I realized that our marriage in the temple was our most important accomplishment. Honors bestowed upon me by men could not begin to approach the inner peace provided by sealings performed in the House of the Lord.1 [1. This experience was also quoted in my address at the April 5, 1992, afternoon session of general conference. See "Doors of Death," Ensign, May 1992, pp. 72-74].”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, The Gateway We Call Death (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1995).


1992: “I remember vividly an experience I had as a passenger in a small two-propeller airplane. One of its engines suddenly burst open and caught on fire. The propeller of the flaming engine was starkly stilled. As we plummeted in a steep spiral dive toward the earth, I expected to die. Some of the passengers screamed in hysterical panic. Miraculously, the precipitous dive extinguished the flames. Then, by starting up the other engine, the pilot was able to stabilize the plane and bring us down safely.

Throughout that ordeal, though I ‘knew’ death was coming, my paramount feeling was that I was not afraid to die. I remember a sense of returning home to meet ancestors for whom I had done temple work. I remember my deep sense of gratitude that my sweetheart and I had been sealed eternally to each other and to our children, born and reared in the covenant. I realized that our marriage in the temple was my most important accomplishment. Honors bestowed upon me by men could not approach the inner peace provided by sealings performed in the house of the Lord.

That harrowing experience consumed but a few minutes, yet my entire life flashed before my mind. Having had such rapid recall when facing death, I do not doubt the scriptural promise of ‘perfect remembrance’ when facing judgment. (Alma 5:18; see also Alma 11:43.)”

Source: Russell M. Nelson, “Doors of Death,” General Conference, April 1992, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng; see also Russell M. Nelson, "Most Important," Friend, June 1994, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng.


1985: “I was in an airplane going from Salt Lake City to St. George to participate in a function at Dixie College. We were in one of those small commuter airplanes. There were about six passengers in it. The pilot had just announced that we were over the halfway point between Salt Lake City and St. George—we were past the point of no return. I thought, 'Well, that's a weird announcement to make.'

"Shortly after that, the engine on the right wing of the airplane burst open in flames, spewing oil all over the right side of the plane. The propeller became starkly still and the whole engine was on fire. We then went into a dive earthward. I assumed that my life was going to be terminated right then and there.

"The poor lady across the aisle from me was in absolute hysterics. She was right there where the flames were the brightest. But the pilot had turned off the ignition that fed more gas into the fire and had purposely been in a steep dive hoping that the flames might be extinguished, which was what happened. Then, with the power still left in the other propeller—which he then turned on just as we were about ready to have our moment of impact—he was able to glide us, following a highway, until we could make an emergency landing.’

"I'm pleased to report that I was really prepared. I knew I was facing death and I was calm. I knew that the most important thing I had ever done was to marry Dantzel White in the temple on August 31—that all of the children that have come into our home were born in the covenant—all faithful; and I was ready to die" (as quoted in Condie, Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle; note: text needs to be checked against Russell M. Nelson, “A Call to Serve,” address at the University of Utah Salt Lake Institute of Religion, March 31, 1985).


1979: “The final nudge came as I was a passenger in a small airplane plummeting earthward with one of its two engines exploded. I realized then although the spiritual and material needs for my family had been provided, I had not left for them a reasonable recapitulation of my life that they could review. The safe emergency landing of that disabled aircraft provided me with the change I needed.”

Purported source: Russell M. Nelson, From Heart to Heart: An Autobiography (Salt Lake City: Nelson, 1979) (note: website quotation should be checked against original; original should be checked for any other references to incident).
Last edited by Tom on Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

One other tidbit from the source:

This "second incident" on Nov. 11, 1976 was one of 3 total engine failures on SkyWest Airlines between Oct. 17 - Nov. 24 1976.

At the time, commercial airline records show SkyWest was the only carrier with service between SLC and SGU.
It's reasonable to say that if Nelson flew SLC to SGU, he flew SkyWest. If he flew SkyWest in a plane that experienced engine failure, then it was the Nov. 11 "second incident." Neither of the other 2 dates are even close.

So what does match with Nelson's story:
* The date - Nov. 11 (1 day prior to his scheduled invocation at Dixie)
* The flight plan (SLC to SGU)
* The single engine failure, "rough engine"
* The unplanned landing in Delta, UT
* Plurality of passengers besides Nelson
* No injuries

All of this information suggests this is the "scary" flight Nelson has referred to on many occasions.

Questions:
1. Is it possible with this description for there to have been an engine fire? What is the failure being described?
2. If yes to (1), with such a fire would it still be possible to "feather" the prop? (Feathering means adjusting the prop blades to face backward, reducing drag, making it easier to glide or fly on the single remaining good engine)
3. If no to (1), would there have been smoke? Would the plane have experienced any period of nosediving?
4. What differentiates between an emergency landing and a "precautionary landing, per instructions in company manual?"
5. How to interpret Nelson's plan making a precautionary landing at Delta Airport, and not an emergency landing in a farmer's field as claimed?
6. If Nelson was traveling the day before his event, why make a big deal about another plane being dispatched and managing to get to the inauguration on time?

We have the tail number for the Nov. 11, 1976 flight -- N74985. Perhaps with that information, more can be learned.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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More questions from Dr. Moore:

Q1. Is it possible with this description for there to have been an engine fire? What is the failure being described?

A1. As described in the report, there was no fire. As noted upthread, an engine fire would require that the pilot declare an emergency. The fact that the there was a "precautionary" landing (and not emergency landing) indicates no fire.

The failure described appeared to arise from an earlier maintenance problem that caused studs holding one the cylinder jugs to the crankcase to shear off. Allowed to progress, this kind of problem could have resulted catastrophic failure if more studs ha sheared causing the jug and the crankcase had become badly misaligned or even to part company.


Q2. If yes to (1), with such a fire would it still be possible to "feather" the prop? (Feathering means adjusting the prop blades to face backward, reducing drag, making it easier to glide or fly on the single remaining good engine)

A2.In the process of feathering, the prop shafts are rotated on their axis by approximately 90 degrees, turning the blades so that their sharp edge faces forward, thus reducing their cross section in the direction of the oncoming airflow. On the Navajo Chieftain, props need to be feathered on engine shutdown before they drop below about 1000 RPM - an engine fire would not interfere with this process.

Q3. If no to (1), would there have been smoke? Would the plane have experienced any period of nosediving?

A3. When an engine in a lightly loaded twin starts running rough (e.g. "missing" because of loss of compression on one cylinder, for example, which appeared to be the case here) the pilot would normally shut it down preemptively to avoid possible further damage. There would have been no smoke.

In this case, the pilot may have experienced reduced power and lack of thrust from the affected engine. To shut down the affected engine he would anticipate asymmetrical thrust and step on the opposite rudder (he may be doing that already if there was substantial loss of power in the affected engine.) The crew would then pull back on the throttle while increasing pressure on the opposite rudder. Then set the mixture to lean/off and shut off the magnetos, alternator, boost pump, set fuel selector to off, and set prop sync to off. In the meantime the pilot or the copilot would increase power on the good engine to maintain airspeed and finally trim the rudder for asymmetrical thrust. Normally the Captain would fly the airplane (yoke, rudder, throttles, mixture and props - including feather) while the First Officer secured the affected engine (close the cowl flaps and flipped the switches according to a checklist).

There would likely be a slight loss of altitude during this process, but no nose dive and certainly no death spiral dive and absolutely no need for hysterical screaming.


Q4. What differentiates between an emergency landing and a "precautionary landing, per instructions in company manual?"

A4. An engine fire would do the trick.

Q5. How to interpret Nelson's plane making a precautionary landing at Delta Airport, and not an emergency landing in a farmer's field as claimed?

A5. Someone is lying

Q6. If Nelson was traveling the day before his event, why make a big deal about another plane being dispatched and managing to get to the inauguration on time?

A6. Makes a "better" story.
_____________________

Edited to make make general twin engine out procedure more specific to Navajo Chieftain PA 31 350.
Last edited by DrW on Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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DrW wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:37 pm
A1. As described in the report, there was no fire. As noted upthread, an engine fire would require that the pilot declare an emergency. The fact that the there was a "precautionary" landing (and not emergency landing) indicates no fire.

The failure described appeared to arise from an earlier maintenance problem that caused one the cylinder jugs to come loose from the crankcase. Allowed to progress, this kind of problem could have resulted catastrophic failure if the jug and the crankcase had become badly misaligned or parted company.
This is absolutely astonishing. No fire.
DrW wrote: A3. When an engine in a lightly loaded twin starts running rough (e.g. "missing" because of loss of compression on one cylinder, for example, which appeared to be the case here) the pilot would normally shut it down preemptively to avoid possible further damage. There would have been no smoke.

In this case, the pilot may have experienced reduced power and lack of thrust from the affected engine.
...
There would likely be a slight loss of altitude during this process, but no nose dive and certainly no death spiral dive and absolutely no need for hysterical screaming.
So this would have been like a few seconds of rapid descent, or more than a few seconds? Enough to make your stomach jump? Maybe enough to surprise everyone and someone in the cabin shrieks from the unexpected drop? Would the pilot have had a moment to notify passengers, or would this brief descent have happened suddenly?


It seems like for the first time, we have positive evidentiary basis to show that Nelson embellished almost everything about the incident.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:00 pm
No one is going to mention how the women are portrayed as hysterical and fearful, while Nelson the Man remained calm, cool, and collected? I always wonder what kind of subconcious lessons women (and girls) internalize with a story like that ...

- Doc
Plenty of lessons. When Mormon women stop behaving the way Mormon men think they should, they are shunned and called various names.

I still recall one of the last conversations I had with my extremely intelligent, multi-talented mother. No offense to my father, the ph.D holder and decades-long bishop, but she ran circles around him in the brains department. But from her I still got: "You will regret it if you don't listen to the Priesthood!". I try to be respectful, but the last communication I got from my Priesthood-holding brother in 2018 was that while he was willing to let Mormon relatives stay in his basement for a family reunion, for MY family (the non-Mormons) ... "there is a motel down the road.." That is a direct quote, from my older brother. He also called me a bitch in front of all of my siblings, because I held a job outside the home while raising a child. The job? An assistant professorship at an Ivy League University where I had so much flexibility my school age daughter only had a babysitter for about 5 hours a week.

So yes, plenty of subconscious lessons.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Lem wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:45 pm
... but the last communication I got from my Priesthood-holding brother in 2018 was that while he was willing to let Mormon relatives stay in his basement for a family reunion, for MY family (the non-Mormons) ... "there is a motel down the road.." That is a direct quote, from my older brother. He also called me a bitch in front of all of my siblings, because I held a job outside the home while raising a child. The job? An assistant professorship at an Ivy League University where I had so much flexibility my school age daughter only had a babysitter for about 5 hours a week.

So yes, plenty of subconscious lessons.
And people wonder why some of us ex-Mormons cut our families out of our lives. I'm very sorry to read that your family treated you this way. It's bananas.

I took very deliberate precautions to shield my daughters from my side of the family. I never let any of my siblings near them, nor my father. My mother passed when they were very young so she had no influence over their development. I was determined to treat them as fairly and equitably as I'd treat a son, and so one of my biggest challenges was to enact damage control from their mother who would take them to church when they were young. Luckily none of it took, and they were able to be whatever they wanted to be.

That said, why do I want to punch your brother in the nose?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Lem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:58 pm
...That said, why do I want to punch your brother in the nose?

- Doc
You and me both, my friend, you and me both.

I have taken the best revenge I can however. My three children have no clue how inhibiting the lds church is, except for the stories I tell which they find quaint and bizarre. And my one daughter, who has an advanced medical degree and is a practicing professional, has never once been told that she should "listen to [men who hold] the priesthood."

As much as I love my Mother, I consider it a major accomplishment that I have moved beyond her mindset. Sometimes I think of how far she could have gone without such limitations, but on the other hand, maybe it takes generations to get past things like this. They have a very, very strong hold on people's history, especially women's. I am who I am because she encouraged me to be myself, a self which was, admittedly, very far outside the Mormon norm. Looking back, if she were really a devout Mormon she would have put the brakes on my development much earlier. Surely she could see how far outside the lds norm I was venturing? But she didn't, and in fact, she quietly fought my father multiple times on my behalf so I could be different, and I became a very stubborn and outspoken non-Mormon woman. Did she just not notice? Or did she notice, and purposely let it go, so I could move beyond, to a place she couldn't allow herself to go? It seems to take generations, especially for women.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Further responses to questions from Dr. Moore.
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:13 pm
This is absolutely astonishing. No fire.
Nope. As was described several times upthread, an engine fire would have required an NTSB notification and would have definitely been noted in the incident report. The studs that sheared off would have come from the crankcase and extended though the holes in the mounting base as shown in the image below. The cylinder barrel and head assembly shown is often referred to as a "jug". The engines have six cylinders each.

Image
DrW wrote: A3. In this case, the pilot may have experienced reduced power and lack of thrust from the affected engine.
...
There would likely be a slight loss of altitude during this process, but no nose dive and certainly no death spiral dive and absolutely no need for hysterical screaming.
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:13 pm
So this would have been like a few seconds of rapid descent, or more than a few seconds? Enough to make your stomach jump? Maybe enough to surprise everyone and someone in the cabin shrieks from the unexpected drop?
No rapid descent. Most likely, passengers would feel a slight yaw from asymmetrical thrust, and there would have likely been a gentle descent as the crew shut down and secured the rough engine. It's unlikely that there would have been much of a nose-down change in pitch. There would have been a change in the sound of the engines as one shut down and the other increased power, but no rapid descent. Remember, the engine that was shut down had not failed. It was still providing thrust when they decided to shut it down.
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:13 pm
Would the pilot have had a moment to notify passengers, or would this brief descent have happened suddenly?
This was not an emergency and nothing would have happened suddenly. Before starting the shutdown procedure, the Captain would have informed the passengers that one of the engines was running a bit rough and they had decided to shut it down as a precaution. He would have reminded the passengers that they had a perfectly good engine on the other wing and that the aircraft was designed to fly safely on one engine.
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:13 pm
It seems like for the first time, we have positive evidentiary basis to show that Nelson embellished almost everything about the incident.
Plus adding a few flourishes of his own, like the spiraling death dive with flames engulfing the aircraft.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
IHAQ
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by IHAQ »

At this point, the only thing going down in a death spiral engulfed in flames is Russell M. Nelson's reputation...
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