There were more Males than Females.

[_TygerFang]

TygerFang, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ0jRuASVEQ

Oh golly geez! How could I have ever doubted! [/sarcasm]

[_ajax18]

However unless you have undeniable proof it's hard to see it as little more than speculation

First of all, no scientific theory, even electricity, is beyond criticism, nor can you can you even say that we have absolute proof that an electron exists. Absolute truths and undeniable proof belong to the realm of philosophy. Second, you don't have to perform all scientific experiments in a lab. Personal observation in the real world can give us a lot of information as well. Third, a lot of scientific data in regards to race and gender is covered up because it may appear offensive to one group. This doesn't change whether it's true or not. It just changes whether it's socially acceptable to point out, when people are more comfortable believing otherwise. You can't even say in a pediatric development class that girls unlike boys usually don't naturally lock their wrists when throwing a ball without being labeled and shamed as a "sexist." This doesn't mean that it's not true. It just means someone didn't want to hear it and had enough power and influence to force everyone not to say it.

Lies, no matter how much better they may make us feel at first, always weaken us. The truth makes us stronger.

[_TygerFang]

However unless you have undeniable proof it's hard to see it as little more than speculation

First of all, no scientific theory, even electricity, is beyond criticism, nor can you can you even say that we have absolute proof that an electron exists. Absolute truths and undeniable proof belong to the realm of philosophy. Second, you don't have to perform all scientific experiments in a lab. Personal observation in the real world can give us a lot of information as well. Third, a lot of scientific data in regards to race and gender is covered up because it may appear offensive to one group. This doesn't change whether it's true or not. It just changes whether it's socially acceptable to point out, when people are more comfortable believing otherwise. You can't even say in a pediatric development class that girls unlike boys usually don't naturally lock their wrists when throwing a ball without being labeled and shamed as a "sexist." This doesn't mean that it's not true. It just means someone didn't want to hear it and had enough power and influence to force everyone not to say it.

Lies, no matter how much better they may make us feel at first, always weaken us. The truth makes us stronger.

nothing else in my post you want to talk about? Also if you must know there is undeniable proof that electricity exists, 1. lightning, 2. the fact that electronics work, and 3. the fact that we are able to do experiments with it. As for electrons they have a mass of approximately 1 / 1836 of a proton and their charge has been measured a number of times. If it's possible to know something like that and conduct those kinds of experiments then an electron must be real, unless you know the exact density of a unicorn horn? But that's off topic.

Anyways, many things do not have undeniable proof. I guess I shouldn't have expected any in this case either, but it doesn't matter much I'll just settle for scientific proof that is more than your speculation. For my finial point is there a cover up study? Why would they do a study if they were to just cover it up and never look at the results? And how do you know about the cover up studies?

[_beastie]

TD I was always taught that the first wife had to give permission for additional wives to come into the family. I'm not saying that there was no coercion involved, but theoretically speaking I can see polygamy as less disrespectful under certain rules such as this. It makes me think of the situation in the Bible where Sariah offers Abraham her handmaiden as a means of obtaining posterity. As I read the story, I understand this was a struggle for her, but she did give permission for it. I didn't see it as Abraham breaking her heart in doing this. I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened. I'm just trying to envision it under the best circumstances for the woman.

You were taught something incorrect. First wives' permission were NOT required. In fact, when questioned in court, the prophet Joseph F. Smith admitted that permission was NOT required, and amounted to nothing. He was questioned in the Reed Smoot case thusly:

SENATOR PETTUS. Have there been in the past plural marriages without the consent of the first wife?
MR. SMITH. I do not know of any, unless it may have been Joseph Smith himself.
SENATOR PETTUS. Is the language that you have read construed to mean that she is bound to consent?
MR. SMITH. The condition is that if she does not consent the Lord will destroy her, but I do not know how He will do it.
SENATOR BAILEY. Is it not true that in the very next verse, if she refuses her consent her husband is exempt from the law which requires her consent?
MR. SMITH. Yes; he is exempt from the law which requires her consent.
SENATOR BAILEY. She is commanded to consent, but if she does not, then he is exempt from the requirement?
MR. SMITH. Then he is at liberty to proceed without her consent, under the law.
SENATOR BEVERIDGE. In other words, her consent amounts to nothing?
MR. SMITH. It amounts to nothing but her consent (Reed Smoot Case, vol. 1, p.201).

Surprisingly enough, I too am not waiting for the day to be blessed with many wives. I could envision a scenario in which my wife wanted to bring a second female into the relationship. But I don't think it would ever occur as a result of me demanding it and breaking her heart. And as it is now, I couldn't support the number of children that one woman could give me, let alone two or three.

What scenario can you imagine in which your wife would want to bring a second female into the relationship? Can you also envision a scenario in which YOU would want to bring a second male into the relationship? If you can envision one, why not the other?

I new a very good man in UT. His wife was tragically killed in a car accident. They had 11 children together. They were a wonderful missionary couple. She was probably one of the finest women I've ever met. As spiritual as he was, he was depressed and bitter about her death for a while. 3 years later he married her sister. Some of us even felt like his first wife was there at the temple, as if she had orchestrated the marriage from across the veil. I honestly don't believe the first wife was jealous or upset by this relationship, if indeed she saw it from across the veil. I think they'll probably be happy to all be together in the next life. But these people lived in a higher level of spirituality than most and therefore I wouldn't expect everyone to understand this. Sometimes a person remarrying after the death of a spouse says something good about the first spouse. Had the first spouse been a selfish and difficult person, perhaps the surviving spouse would have been turned off to marriage completely.

This scenario can also describe a woman who loses her husband in a tragic accident. Can she keep both her husbands in the next life?

Does your sex drive make you chase boys? Do you buy stuff for them to win their affection? Do you have hard time not chasing other boys when you're committed to one? Who initiates sex more often, you or the boy? I'm not saying girls don't have a sex drive. Female animals seem to have a very strong sex drive at certain times. But a woman's sex drive is nowhere near as strong as a man's.

Are you serious??? Are you oblivious to all the things that females do to attract males????

You keep making blanket statements that are simply unsupportable. The one generalization that can be made about the female sex drive is that it is highly variable among females. It can be "normal" for a woman to have NO sex drive (normal meaning she has nothing physically abnormal causing this, nor any psychiatric disorder) and it can be "normal" for a woman to want sex several times a day. Males also have variable sex drives, although the lower extreme is probably less frequent - but not unknown.

One interesting example I had was a friend of mine whose girlfriend cheated on him. She was sorry she did it and wanted him back. His reply was, "I understand him and what he wanted, but I don't understand you and what you wanted by doing this." Do you think women cheat just for sex? I personally don't. I think it has to do with getting attention or something else more than just sex. I've noticed that most relationships in which the woman cheats usually end. Relationships in which the man cheats often survive. Look at the Clintons for example. Bill loves Hillary and she's his wife and probably always will be, but this doesn't stop Bill from trying to nail everything that isn't nailed down. He's emotionally attached to Hillary. His affairs are just about sex. And yes I have more respect for what a polygamous man does than what Bill Clinton does. One of the worst parts for me about being cheated on is knowing that you've been lied to. At least polygamy in theory is not deceitful.

Maybe the fact that your friend couldn't believe his wife cheated for sex was part of the problem.

Look at your bolded statement. Combine this with the fact that women are branded sluts - if not killed - when they demonstrate a high sex drive, and maybe you will begin to understand why females have been historically coy about their sex drives.

Women are beginning to speak out more in societies/cultures where they don't fear judgment - or death - for talking about their desire for sex.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 20,00.html

Men really want to believe women have lower sex drives. Their worst fear is being cuckolded. The very fact that men tend to be very sexually possessive and jealous of their women, as well as having a natural dread of cuckoldry tells us all we need to know about female sexual behavior.

It is very difficult to get reliable numbers regarding cuckoldry. Some studies show astoundingly high numbers, at 20-30%. Other more conservative studies put the rate at 4%. Even if you choose the more conservative number, if you remember that the vast majority of extra marital sex does NOT result in pregnancy, you begin to get an idea of the scale of the problem.

I think this is plain common sense in terms of evolution. A woman obtains a reproductive advantage by mating with a powerful alpha male. But, at the same time, that powerful alpha male may NOT be the optimum sperm donor in terms of physical characteristics. The best of both possible worlds, in terms of reproduction success, would be for the woman to pair bond with a powerful male and convince him her offspring are all his, while selecting superior physical specimens to actually be the "sperm donor".

Yes, it is risky behavior, but so is the male seeking random matings on the side. The offspring of those random matings do NOT have the benefit of the providing male, so their rate of survival would be less. But as long as there's SOME chance of survival, it's still beneficial, in terms of reproductive success.

Once again, I want to emphasize that biology is NOT destiny, NOR is it necessarily happiness. But knowledge is POWER. Understanding the "whys" behind our urges can help us rationally measure the impact of our choices on our lives overall. Reproductive success can be totally unrelated to happiness.

by the way, I believe women have such variable rates of sex drives for the same reason we have "hidden" ovulation/early pregnancy: to keep the male confused and more prone to stick around.

[_Brackite]

For a sociological study that examined ratios and economics, contrary to your opening thread, I recommend Kathryn Daynes, "More Wives than One: Transformation of the Mormon Marriage System, 1940-1910 (Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 2001), chapters 5 - 7. The book concludes that there was a slight surplus of women in the territory but a significant surplus of worthy and endowed women to worthy and endowed men.

The census data does not distinguish between Mormons and non-Mormons.

Widstoe had no sociological data.

I would be interested in any non-anonymous critiques of Daynes' work.

Hey,
Are you stating that the men in the LDS Church who Practiced Polygamy/Polygyny, were more righteous than the men in the LDS Church who did not and/or were Not able to practiced it (Polygamy/Polygyny)?? Are we not all supposed to be considered to be equal in the Church under the Lord God? King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon, did not consider himself more righteous than his people. Here is Mosiah Chapter Two, Verse 26:

Mosiah 2:26:

[26] And I, even I, whom ye call your king, am no better than ye yourselves are; for I am also of the dust. And ye behold that I am old, and am about to yield up this mortal frame to its mother earth.

Plus also, King Mosiah, who was king after his father King Benjamin passed away, sent a proclamation among the Nephites.
Here is part of what he said, which is found in Mosiah Chapter 27, Verse four:

Mosiah 27:4:

[4] That they should let no pride nor haughtiness disturb their peace; that every man should esteem his neighbor as himself, laboring with their own hands for their support.

There was Not a surplus of women in the LDS Church in the 19th Century, at the time some the LDS men were Practicing Polygamy . Here is more evidence of this, with a list of a few of the young Wives, of the fourth President of the LDS Church, Wilford WOODRUFF:

Age of Female:__________Age of Wilford WOODRUFF:_____Date of Marriage:
Sarah BROWN 19___________Wilford WOODRUFF 46___________13 Mar 1853
Emma SMITH 15____________Wilford WOODRUFF 46___________13 Mar 1853
Sarah D. STOCKING 19_______Wilford WOODRUFF 50___________31 Jul 1857


Most of the LDS men who practiced Polygamy/Polygyny in the 19th Century, were in Leadership Positions within the LDS Church.

[_Seven]

First off, I didn't say that women have no sex drive. I just said that it was less than a mans.

Not in my marriage nor in the majority of my friends marriages. I can only think of one girlfriend of mine who complains about having sex but it has more to do with extreme exhaustion and lack of help from her husband.

For women and men with low sex drive, depression or hormonal imbalances are often the problem.
(or sadly in some cases, loss of belief in Mormonism)

I can't watch anything on television without seeing a Viagra commercial every break.

[_Seven]

Such seems to be the state of affairs today. There seems to be many more believing and worthy active single women in the church than men. I wonder why we don't do polygamy today.

And if polygamy returns, you would see a mass exodus of LDS women. The surplus will end up being men.

[_moksha]

Seven, welcome back.

[_Seven]

Thanks Moshka. :)