Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

[Shulem]

On the MAd board T-shirt

"The papyri may or may not have contained Abraham's writings, but it is the message contained in the translation that matter. If it were possible to determine, definitively, that none of the Joseph Smith papyri contained anything whatsoever having to do with Abraham, it wouldn't change anything for the Church or the Book of Abraham, we still have a translation, even if it didn't come from the papyri.

Now you have me confused.

The dodos at MAD just don't get it -- they are brain dead! The intelligence level over there is retarded! Their founding 19th century prophet told a whale of a tale about Egypt being founded after the flood (2300 BC) by a woman ("Egyptus") who disembarked from Noah's ark and traveled a great distance in order to settle her sons in what later would be called "Egypt." The story told in the Book of Abraham chapter one is absolutely and totally false. Joseph Smith was wrong. Period. End of story.

Go over to the MAD board and tell them that Shulem said they can f themselves!

Idiots.

[Shulem]

It simply suggests that the facsimiles were appropriated - repurposed - by Joseph Smith. And this would mean that the meaning of the facsimiles in the context of the Book of Abraham should NOT be understood as translations of some Egyptian text but rather that they should be understood as documents produced by Joseph Smith that borrowed from earlier documents in a purely aesthetic fashion.

That is a 21st century apologetic viewpoint coming from an apologist who has not yet comes to terms with the fact that he has been lied to. There is nothing in the historical records that suggest Joseph Smith would ever support McGuire's views. McGuire throws his prophet under the bus and runs him over. Quite the opposite in fact shows that Joseph Smith declared by the Holy Ghost that he KNEW the papyri were original autographs of the patriarchs -- written by their own hands and sealed up in a tomb. The Holy Ghost (Tweedledum) and Joseph Smith (Tweedledee) were both wrong.

McGuire has nothing. He's bankrupt!

[malkie]

It simply suggests that the facsimiles were appropriated - repurposed - by Joseph Smith. And this would mean that the meaning of the facsimiles in the context of the Book of Abraham should NOT be understood as translations of some Egyptian text but rather that they should be understood as documents produced by Joseph Smith that borrowed from earlier documents in a purely aesthetic fashion.

That is a 21st century apologetic viewpoint coming from an apologist who has not yet comes to terms with the fact that he has been lied to. There is nothing in the historical records that suggest Joseph Smith would ever support McGuire's views. McGuire throws his prophet under the bus and runs him over. Quite the opposite in fact shows that Joseph Smith declared by the Holy Ghost that he KNEW the papyri were original autographs of the patriarchs -- written by their own hands and sealed up in a tomb. The Holy Ghost (Tweedledum) and Joseph Smith (Tweedledee) were both wrong.

McGuire has nothing. He's bankrupt!

Not only JSJr. Can Ben (or anyone else) show us where the Q15 have taught this concept?

And, really, if anyone should know the truth, and have the right to teach it as church doctrine, is it not the Q15?

Ben may be a great guy, but he is not an apostle.

[Shulem]

And, really, if anyone should know the truth, and have the right to teach it as church doctrine, is it not the Q15?

The leaders of the Church don't know what to do. The Book of Abraham has been a serious problem for the church since 1912. Ever since the papyrus fragments were returned to the Church in 1967 there has been no authoritative utterance from a Church President on how to explain the obvious controversies that surround the Book of Abraham. The mouths of the prophets have remained shut. They have nothing to say and there is nothing they can do to console those who question and seek further light and knowledge.

Mormon prophets are duds. They are fake. All of them.

It's over for the Book of Abraham. Not even believing Mormons believe it.

[hauslern]

From When Prophecy Fails Festinger Reicken & Schachter p.3.

"A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."

The current issue with the Book of Abraham is causing a lot of dissonance because no nonlds scholar sees Smith's "translation " of the papyri as correct. So we have the 'missing Book of Abraham papyri" hypotheses and the "revelatory' hypotheses.

From Festinger et al. p.28

Dissonance and consonance are relations among cognitions - that is, among opinions, beliefs, knowledge of the environment and knowledge of one's own actions and feelings. Two opinions, or beliefs, or items of knowledge are dissonant with each other if they do not fit together - that is they are inconsistent, or if, considering only the particular two items, one does not follow from the other eg a cigarette smoker. Dissonance produces discomfort and the half millennium before the hypocephali appear, correspondingly there will be pressures to reduce or eliminate the dissonance.

Notice how Nibley tries to deal with Klaus Baer:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lSD ... sp=sharing

The person may try to change one or more beliefs, opinions or behaviours involved in the dissonance; to acquire new information or beliefs that will increase the existing consonance and this cause the total dissonance to be reduced: or forget or reduce the importance of those cognitions that are in a dissonant relationship p.28

Gee reviewed Tamas Mekis book on the hypocephalus in a European publication Bibliotheca Orientalis LXXX No. 1-2 januari -april 2022
Mekis has nothing to say about Smith's interpretation but lists the sketch of facsimile 2. In his review he writes, "Mekis has not answered all questions one might have about hypocephali. One question that his work leaves open is that if hypocephali are a fourth and third century phenomenon an expression of an amulet described in the Book of the Dead 162 which appears in the Twenty-first Dynasty. what form did that amulet take in the half millennium before be forthcoming the hypocephali appeared? His methodological choices prevent him from answering the question or even exploring it. Mekis deserves gratitude for an outstanding achievement in gathering and organising a wealth of material that will make studying hypocephali much easier in the future. He has also put forward a coherent interpretation. Though other interpretations are possible and will doubtlessly be forthcoming, he has at least provided a target for others to tilt at. This work should be the new starting point for future study" p.12i

Will Gee make a tilt? Will he deal with Smith's interpretations?

[Moksha]

The dodos at MAD just don't get it -- they are brain dead! The intelligence level over there is retarded! Their founding 19th century prophet told a whale of a tale about Egypt being founded after the flood (2300 BC) by a woman ("Egyptus") who disembarked from Noah's ark and traveled a great distance in order to settle her sons in what later would be called "Egypt." The story told in the Book of Abraham chapter one is absolutely and totally false. Joseph Smith was wrong. Period. End of story.

Does having a heightened ability to pretend necessarily mean they are retarded? If they were to make a daily trip to Manhattan and sit on a bench in front of the Daily Bugle on the off chance of seeing Spiderman (or possibly one of the other Avengers) would you question their IQ or emotional stability?

[Shulem]

And this would mean that the meaning of the facsimiles in the context of the Book of Abraham should NOT be understood as translations of some Egyptian text...

McGuire attempts to liken Smith's revelatory translations to secular scholars of his day and earlier who used to interpret the text and symbols based on making intelligent guesses because nobody at that time could actually read Egyptian until the Rosetta Stone was deciphered. Orson Pratt makes a distinction by mentioning such translations which can't possibly compare with how Smith literally translated by converting Egyptian into English:

red = not a literal translation
blue = a literal translation

And the mummies and the records were exhibited by Mr. Chandler, in New York, Philadelphia, and many of the Eastern States of our Union; and thousands of people saw them, and among them many learned men; and these characters were presented to them, and not unfrequently was Mr. Chandler referred to ‘Joe’ Smith as they used to term him, who, they said, pretended to have translated some records that he found in the western part of New York, and that if Mr. Chandler would go and see him perhaps he would translate those ancient characters. Many of these references were made with the intention of ridiculing Mr. Smith; but it so happened that in traveling through the country he visited Kirtland, Ohio, where the Prophet Joseph Smith resided, bringing the mummies and the ancient papyrus writings with him. Mr. C. had also obtained from learned men the best translation he could've some few characters, which however, was not a translation, but more in the shape of their ideas with regard to it, their acquaintance with the language not being sufficient to enable them to translate it literally. After some conversation with the Prophet Joseph, Mr. Chandler presented to him the ancient characters, asking him if he could translate them. The prophet took them and repaired to his room and inquired of the Lord concerning them. The Lord told him they were sacred records, containing the inspired writings of Abraham when he was in Egypt, and also those of Joseph, while he was in Egypt; and they had been deposited, with these mummies, which had been exhumed. And he also inquired of the Lord concerning some few characters which Mr. Chandler, gave him by way of a test, to see if he could translate them. The Prophet Joseph translated these characters and returned them, with the translation to Mr. Chandler; and who, in comparing it with the translation of the same few characters by learned men, that he had before obtained, found the two to agree.

In addition, another eyewitness by the name of Appleby gave lengthy descriptions of Smith's presentation of the relics to include the papyri and mummies. The very papyri on display was declared to be the actual writings of Abraham and Joseph, the latter being the "better scribe."

The male mummy was one of the Ancient – Pharaoh’s of Egypt, and a Priest, as he is embalmed with his tongue extended, representing a speaker. The females were his wife and two daughters, as part of the writing has been translated, and informs us, who they were, also whose writing it is, and when those mummies were embalmed, which is nearly four thousand years ago.

Note that Appleby clearly states that the writing has been translated and informs us who the mummies were some 4,000 years prior. All this is proof that Smith claimed to translate the writing literally the same as one would convert French into English.

McGuire doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and he's a liar.

[Shulem]

Does having a heightened ability to pretend necessarily mean they are retarded?

Neuroreceptors in McGuire's brain have been closed off because he lies to himself. He's a retard.

[Shulem]

I really like Ben, and the way he approaches issues. I wish he would post here more.

I hear what you're saying but you should know that Ben once called my apologetic ideas of representationalism "rubbish." Yep, as a former apologist, many years ago, I totally pushed the Catalyst theory and had a hard time gaining converts among my fellow believers, Ben being one of them -- and also Gee. Now it seems, he's embraced it.

[Doctor Steuss]

I really like Ben, and the way he approaches issues. I wish he would post here more.

I hear what you're saying but you should know that Ben once called my apologetic ideas of representationalism "rubbish." Yep, as a former apologist, many years ago, I totally pushed the Catalyst theory and had a hard time gaining converts among my fellow believers, Ben being one of them -- and also Gee. Now it seems, he's embraced it.

Thou art truly a prophet of apologetics.

Moprophegetist extraordinaire.