Skousen & McGuire apologetics on the Book of Abraham.

[hauslern]

"The Book of Abraham was a revelation given to Joseph Smith, who later (mistakenly thinking it was a translation from the papyri he had in his possession) tried to connect the revealed text to the papyri by inserting two sentences, verse 12c and verse 14, into Abraham 1. The secondary nature of these two inserted sentences can be directly observed in the photos of folios 1a and 1b in the document identified as Ab2. Verse 12c is totally inserted intralinearly, not partially (as incorrectly represented in the accompanying transcription – and without comment). Verse 14 is not written on the page as are other portions of this part of the text (instead, it is written flush to the left), which implies that it is a comment on the papyri and that it was added to the revealed text. Overall, these results imply that all the facsimiles from the papyri (1-3 in the published Pearl of Great Price) should be considered extracanonical and additions to the revealed text of the Book of Abraham, not integral parts of the original text of the book."

page 39 https://humanities.BYU.edu/wp-content/u ... -J2019.pdf

McGuire

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75 ... 1210155740
"For me, part of the challenge is that Skousen comes to this with some sort of idea of what scripture should be (I don't think that I agree with him). Even if the couple of lines of text are later insertions (something I myself have been arguing for at least 30 years or so), doesn't necessarily disqualify the use of the facsimiles. It simply suggests that the facsimiles were appropriated - repurposed - by Joseph Smith. And this would mean that the meaning of the facsimiles in the context of the Book of Abraham should NOT be understood as translations of some Egyptian text but rather that they should be understood as documents produced by Joseph Smith that borrowed from earlier documents in a purely aesthetic fashion. What matters isn't the original context, or their original meaning (which has been tossed aside) but the meaning and context given to them by Joseph Smith. It would be an application of the Book of Mormon idea of "likening scripture" - by ignoring that original context, we make them useful to ourselves by using them to explain or interpret or contextualize modern revelation.

This particular issue also points to the reason why someone like Bokovoy would label the Book of Abraham as Pseudepigrapha. Skousen wants the text to be ancient scripture (in some way). Bokovoy would argue that it is modern scripture."

Is McGuire a lawyer?

[drumdude]

Wow. So the BYU apologetics cartel is now taking scissors to the scriptures? Bold move, cotton...

[hauslern]

Shulem you have won your case. Gee loses.

[Doctor Steuss]

I really like Ben, and the way he approaches issues. I wish he would post here more.

[Philo Sofee]

Hilarious! ANYTHING but what Joseph Smith and the eyewitnesses said. Their revelations didn't give us truth, today's Mopologists know the truth, trust them...

If it's a square peg and a round hole, then round that peg, but pretend it is still that original and true square shape, and mash er in the hole boys...

Sandra Tanner is ENTIRELY VINDICATED. "We won!" she said. The evidence is right before our eyes. Just wow, what a day of celebration!

[Shulem]

Shulem you have won your case. Gee loses.

Indeed, I have won my case! The battles have been fought and the lines have been drawn. The war is over and Joseph Smith lost. The Church today has the smoldering ruins of the Book of Abraham in its possession and there is nothing it can do to revive it or save it. It's over.

The following threads in the Celestial forum serve to show there is nothing the apologists can do to further the cause of the Book of Abraham and the world will never, ever, embrace it.

Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

“King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Anubis in Facsimile No. 3 and Mormon Deception

Hey, Gee, it sucks to be you. How do you sleep at night knowing you're living a lie?

[Shulem]

Hilarious! ANYTHING but what Joseph Smith and the eyewitnesses said. Their revelations didn't give us truth, today's Mopologists know the truth, trust them...

If it's a square peg and a round hole, then round that peg, but pretend it is still that original and true square shape, and mash er in the hole boys...

Sandra Tanner is ENTIRELY VINDICATED. "We won!" she said. The evidence is right before our eyes. Just wow, what a day of celebration!

Yes, my friend, we have won the war. We are resting on our glories and enjoy the spoils. The satisfaction of knowing we are right gives us much joy. And don't forget to finish your commentary of the Book of Abraham by plugging those numbers into the formula that absolutely devastates any hope for apologists in making the Book of Abraham credible. It puts an end to the Catalyst theory and proves the origin story of the Book of Abraham is fiction. The Mormons will have to deal with that as they learn to convert their scriptures into pseudepigrapha and embrace the nonsense.

[Moksha]

Mormons could always claim that their fiction is the truest (demonstrably truer than season 8 of the Game of Thrones). Having Daenerys Targaryen take on the countenance of Brigham Young and roast the residents of Kings Landing was so far out as to strain the wildest of credulities.

[Shulem]

Mormons could always claim that their fiction is the truest (demonstrably truer than season 8 of the Game of Thrones). Having Daenerys Targaryen take on the countenance of Brigham Young and roast the residents of Kings Landing was so far out as to strain the wildest of credulities.

The Mormons can get rid of the Facsimiles and claim they were nothing more than musings and ideas published in 1842 by Joseph Smith as a revelation to the world. But what does that solve? Are they also going to rip out chapter one that tells *how* and *when* Egypt was founded?



Look, the BYP is fully armed and ready to wipe the apologists out the second they open their bloody mouths.

Sic 'em, Kerry!

[hauslern]

On the MAd board T-shirt

"The papyri may or may not have contained Abraham's writings, but it is the message contained in the translation that matter. If it were possible to determine, definitively, that none of the Joseph Smith papyri contained anything whatsoever having to do with Abraham, it wouldn't change anything for the Church or the Book of Abraham, we still have a translation, even if it didn't come from the papyri.

Now you have me confused.