The idea of a Restoration of Christ’s New Testament “church” was unoriginal

[PseudoPaul]

That's what I'm pretty much saying. Jesus planted the seeds knowing that Christianity, as it was and is, would be the result. Through that process, which brought about its own success in the lives of people, the seed was nurtured and matured. When the time and place for the restoration of all things was ripe, then the fullness was able to be 'planted' with the knowledge that there would be no withering away.

Jesus did not forsee Christianity or intend to start a new religion. He was basically just carrying on the work of John the Baptist, preparing the righteous Jewish poor for the imminent arrival of the Son of Man, a powerful angel from heaven who would drive out the Romans and their wealthy collaborators, leaving the land for the poor and downtrodden to enjoy in peace. He did not intend to be murdered by Rome.

[MG 2.0]

That's what I'm pretty much saying. Jesus planted the seeds knowing that Christianity, as it was and is, would be the result. Through that process, which brought about its own success in the lives of people, the seed was nurtured and matured. When the time and place for the restoration of all things was ripe, then the fullness was able to be 'planted' with the knowledge that there would be no withering away.

Jesus did not forsee Christianity or intend to start a new religion. He was basically just carrying on the work of John the Baptist, preparing the righteous Jewish poor for the imminent arrival of the Son of Man, a powerful angel from heaven who would drive out the Romans and their wealthy collaborators, leaving the land for the poor and downtrodden to enjoy in peace. He did not intend to be murdered by Rome.

To each his own. I believe that Jesus knew His mission of redemption and resurrection and teaching The Way. The seeds were planted. His work on earth as a mortal man was complete when He was crucified by the Romans.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Your argument here is internally contradictory. On the one hand, you seem to treat all past events as if they must have happened exactly the way they did. On the other, you claim that Agency reigns supreme, meaning the course of history is contingent, not necessary. If agency reigns supreme, then history since the first century could have had a near infinite number of outcomes, contingent on how people exercised their agency.

I hear what you're saying. There does appear to be a contradiction. But maybe there's not.

The agency that has been exercised in the past that leads to future conditions may be associated with many people independently arriving at similar outcomes affected by environmental conditions. Some of those outcomes are more likely than others. Agency is individual but it flows within certain constraints /channels shaped by the environment. Choices made by those that came earlier impact choices made...in the main...by future generations of individuals within groups/cultures.

More or less, like I've said, an evolutionary process. And it happens naturally unless acted upon by an outside force.

If God knew what the emergent patterns were going to show as a result, He might be able to plan for the future...a known future for Him...even though natural determinism dictated the past.

I've said earlier that I believe that the original 'church' of Christ was what resulted from the 'seed' which resulted from the fact that Jesus Christ walked the earth and did what He did. The Catholic Church and its mutations, including the Protestant Reformation, resulted in an 'emergent pattern' that God may have been able to statistically predict from known factors and human predilections for behavior and choice.

So, when I'm asking about the size of the church and whether or not that "matters"...I think that it doesn't. It's the natural outgrowth of what has come before. Size shouldn't be a factor, as Physics Guy seems to be saying, as to whether or not the CofJCofLDS is true or not.

Regards,
MG

That’s the thing about starting from a blatant contradiction: anything follows. A and ~A implies everything.

Evolution is a natural process. But there are no uniquely natural results of evolution. It’s all highly contingent an enormous number of factors. The process is in no way deterministic. So, to treat evolution and free agency as countervailing forces is nonsensical.

This is just another example of your Panglossian style of rationalization. More bafflegab.

[MG 2.0]

I hear what you're saying. There does appear to be a contradiction. But maybe there's not.

The agency that has been exercised in the past that leads to future conditions may be associated with many people independently arriving at similar outcomes affected by environmental conditions. Some of those outcomes are more likely than others. Agency is individual but it flows within certain constraints /channels shaped by the environment. Choices made by those that came earlier impact choices made...in the main...by future generations of individuals within groups/cultures.

More or less, like I've said, an evolutionary process. And it happens naturally unless acted upon by an outside force.

If God knew what the emergent patterns were going to show as a result, He might be able to plan for the future...a known future for Him...even though natural determinism dictated the past.

I've said earlier that I believe that the original 'church' of Christ was what resulted from the 'seed' which resulted from the fact that Jesus Christ walked the earth and did what He did. The Catholic Church and its mutations, including the Protestant Reformation, resulted in an 'emergent pattern' that God may have been able to statistically predict from known factors and human predilections for behavior and choice.

So, when I'm asking about the size of the church and whether or not that "matters"...I think that it doesn't. It's the natural outgrowth of what has come before. Size shouldn't be a factor, as Physics Guy seems to be saying, as to whether or not the CofJCofLDS is true or not.

Regards,
MG

That’s the thing about starting from a blatant contradiction: anything follows. A and ~A implies everything.

Evolution is a natural process. But there are no uniquely natural results of evolution. It’s all highly contingent an enormous number of factors. The process is in no way deterministic. So, to treat evolution and free agency as countervailing forces is nonsensical.

This is just another example of your Panglossian style of rationalization. More bafflegab.

I'm not claiming that evolution and agency are determinist forces. I'm suggesting that patterns emerge when individual choices are measured against and/or interact with environmental constraints/conditions over time. I think God is BIG. What that actually really means, who knows? What would seem rather obvious though is that God would plan for many different contingencies and outcomes. Not everything always happens for 'the best' in a natural world of agency combined with the world of nature that we live in.

But here's the thing, meaning and purpose can emerge/evolve even from unforeseen events...that is, events not understood/fully seen from the perspective of humans. God, however, knowing the end from the beginning, can call heads or tails every time because He is in and through all things and can perfectly see emerging patterns.

I'm arguing, again, that God/Jesus knew what those emerging patterns would be after Jesus visited and taught the people when he shared His relationship with God with those that would listen and learn. You don't think that Christ knew that the Catholic Church and its offshoots would spread the Good News throughout the world, even if imperfectly?

Faith involves trusting in overall purpose without demanding perfect predictability. I think this is where we can often tie ourselves in knots. Evolution requires time and energy put into the system. Otherwise, entropy takes over.

Latter-day Saints would call this the Restoration. God knowing and recognizing that the time was right to complete the pattern of Christ's gospel and His plan for the salvation/exaltation of all of God's children. It couldn't have happened before. The time is now.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

MG. l suppose if you assume the churches God established in the first century lost God's favor and God wanted to start a new church he liked in 19th century America then it is possible such church could be the size of the LDS church. Growth takes time.

This is reasonable if you accept the assumptions. I doubt physics Guy finds these reasonable assumptions. In referencing size I think he means if God cares about his church he would not abandon the first ones.

That's what I'm pretty much saying. Jesus planted the seeds knowing that Christianity, as it was and is, would be the result. Through that process, which brought about its own success in the lives of people, the seed was nurtured and matured. When the time and place for the restoration of all things was ripe, then the fullness was able to be 'planted' with the knowledge that there would be no withering away.

...

Can you explain how it is that you know what Jesus knew and intended, in such detail, 2000 years ago?

Earlier you seemed to be doubtful that it was possible to say what Jesus might want based on what he supposedly said as recorded in the scriptures.

[MG 2.0]

That's what I'm pretty much saying. Jesus planted the seeds knowing that Christianity, as it was and is, would be the result. Through that process, which brought about its own success in the lives of people, the seed was nurtured and matured. When the time and place for the restoration of all things was ripe, then the fullness was able to be 'planted' with the knowledge that there would be no withering away.

...

Can you explain how it is that you know what Jesus knew and intended, in such detail, 2000 years ago?

I think He was/is God. That being so, I would strongly suggest that He knew the end from the beginning, or at least the Father did (at the time). This being the case, and as I've outlined in detail in this thread, everything else naturally came as a result.

God wasn't surprised by His son, Constantine, moving the message of Christianity beyond the hinterlands of Judea/Palestine.

I have a feeling that at this point I'm going to be repeating what I've already said...but I don't want to. It might be well to go back and read again what I've expressed previously in this thread.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

That’s the thing about starting from a blatant contradiction: anything follows. A and ~A implies everything.

Evolution is a natural process. But there are no uniquely natural results of evolution. It’s all highly contingent an enormous number of factors. The process is in no way deterministic. So, to treat evolution and free agency as countervailing forces is nonsensical.

This is just another example of your Panglossian style of rationalization. More bafflegab.

I'm not claiming that evolution and agency are determinist forces. I'm suggesting that patterns emerge when individual choices are measured against and/or interact with environmental constraints/conditions over time. I think God is BIG. What that actually really means, who knows? What would seem rather obvious though is that God would plan for many different contingencies and outcomes. Not everything always happens for 'the best' in a natural world of agency combined with the world of nature that we live in.

But here's the thing, meaning and purpose can emerge/evolve even from unforeseen events...that is, events not understood/fully seen from the perspective of humans. God, however, knowing the end from the beginning, can call heads or tails every time because He is in and through all things and can perfectly see emerging patterns.

I'm arguing, again, that God/Jesus knew what those emerging patterns would be after Jesus visited and taught the people when he shared His relationship with God with those that would listen and learn. You don't think that Christ knew that the Catholic Church and its offshoots would spread the Good News throughout the world, even if imperfectly?

Faith involves trusting in overall purpose without demanding perfect predictability. I think this is where we can often tie ourselves in knots. Evolution requires time and energy put into the system. Otherwise, entropy takes over.

Latter-day Saints would call this the Restoration. God knowing and recognizing that the time was right to complete the pattern of Christ's gospel and His plan for the salvation/exaltation of all of God's children. It couldn't have happened before. The time is now.

Regards,
MG

So, today your God is Hari Seldon?

Your argument gets more and more incoherent. If God knows the end from the beginning and can perfectly predict the every flip of a coin, why does he have to rely on “patterns?”

“The time is now.” — Unofficial slogan of Christianity since the 1st Century.

[malkie]

Can you explain how it is that you know what Jesus knew and intended, in such detail, 2000 years ago?

I think He was/is God. That being so, I would strongly suggest that He knew the end from the beginning, or at least the Father did (at the time). This being the case, and as I've outlined in detail in this thread, everything else naturally came as a result.

God wasn't surprised by His son, Constantine, moving the message of Christianity beyond the hinterlands of Judea/Palestine.

I have a feeling that at this point I'm going to be repeating what I've already said...but I don't want to. It might be well to go back and read again what I've expressed previously in this thread.

Regards,
MG

You think ... and assuming that your thoughts being correct, you strongly suggest ...and then if that suggestion is the case ... OK, I suppose, for anyone already convinced that you are correct.
===
How about you also address the second of two sentences in my comment? How much more difficult would it have been to answer both parts at once?

[malkie]

So, today your God is Hari Seldon?

Your argument gets more and more incoherent. If God knows the end from the beginning and can perfectly predict the every flip of a coin, why does he have to rely on “patterns?”

“The time is now.” — Unofficial slogan of Christianity since the 1st Century.

Props for the Asimov reference!

[Limnor]

I'm not claiming that evolution and agency are determinist forces. I'm suggesting that patterns emerge when individual choices are measured against and/or interact with environmental constraints/conditions over time. I think God is BIG. What that actually really means, who knows? What would seem rather obvious though is that God would plan for many different contingencies and outcomes. Not everything always happens for 'the best' in a natural world of agency combined with the world of nature that we live in.

But here's the thing, meaning and purpose can emerge/evolve even from unforeseen events...that is, events not understood/fully seen from the perspective of humans. God, however, knowing the end from the beginning, can call heads or tails every time because He is in and through all things and can perfectly see emerging patterns.

I'm arguing, again, that God/Jesus knew what those emerging patterns would be after Jesus visited and taught the people when he shared His relationship with God with those that would listen and learn. You don't think that Christ knew that the Catholic Church and its offshoots would spread the Good News throughout the world, even if imperfectly?

Faith involves trusting in overall purpose without demanding perfect predictability. I think this is where we can often tie ourselves in knots. Evolution requires time and energy put into the system. Otherwise, entropy takes over.

Latter-day Saints would call this the Restoration. God knowing and recognizing that the time was right to complete the pattern of Christ's gospel and His plan for the salvation/exaltation of all of God's children. It couldn't have happened before. The time is now.

Regards,
MG

So, today your God is Hari Seldon?

Your argument gets more and more incoherent. If God knows the end from the beginning and can perfectly predict the every flip of a coin, why does he have to rely on “patterns?”

“The time is now.” — Unofficial slogan of Christianity since the 1st Century.

Hari Seldon! Perfect.

I’m picturing this version of God running a celestial data-model. Sure, He’s omniscient, but still finds it necessary to periodically consult the probability charts.

Watching this exchange was entertaining too. The whole thing was built up like a grand cathedral of verbiage, only to be popped by a single logical pin. Pfft.