I suppose what I find interesting is that non believers will frequently say, “If Jesus were alive/here” and then point out what He would think, what He would do, how He would judge, etc…as though they know the purposes and mind of Jesus from a book that they themselves distrust to give an accurate/complete description of Him and what He taught in its entirety, etc.
This, as THOUGH He were alive and resurrected in the flesh. And yet they don’t hold that belief in many instances. I’m not sure I understand that.
We can make reasonable inferences from the most plausibly historical sayings found in the synoptic gospels.
As you said, you are relying on only what you've read that has its origins around 2000 years ago. Believing in a man who claimed to be the Son of God that long ago based on old writings is a difficult task, granted. You are not alone.
On the other hand, there are many who view Jesus of Nazareth as being God's only begotten Son in the flesh and the redeemer of all mankind. Even those that don't believe in Him or the resurrection.
If Jesus truly rose from the dead and cared a lot about a church, I’d expect that church today to be a lot bigger than the COJCOLDS. More like the HRCAC, say.
There are a lot of churches that call themselves the church of Jesus Christ.
So, saying that you need to have that in your church name no matter how well everyone knows that you’re about Jesus, and that you need more than ten million members but don’t need more than twenty million, is defining what Jesus’s church would have to be in a way that only makes sense if you’re just trying to fit the LDS church. It’s not an impressive argument at all. It’s just looking at how tall you are and then saying that this is the one perfect height.
If Jesus truly rose from the dead and cared a lot about a church, I’d expect that church today to be a lot bigger than the COJCOLDS.
What do/would you see as a logical scenario of events within the confines/reality of the world as it was anciently (and how it had evolved/developed) and as the world is now in which the true Church of Jesus Christ (assuming that there might be one) would be anything more/different than what it is (assuming that the CofJCofLDS is God's church/organization) ?
Human minds cannot or at least should not be forced. History cannot be rewritten, cultures and societies developed independently from one another. Evolutionary factors are of course natural and expected.
Agency reigns supreme.
Where, when, and how would you expect that the true church of Jesus Christ would be bigger than it is? Again, on the hypothetical that the Mormon missionaries are teaching the truth.
If Jesus truly rose from the dead and cared a lot about a church, I’d expect that church today to be a lot bigger than the COJCOLDS.
What do/would you see as a logical scenario of events within the confines/reality of the world as it was anciently (and how it had evolved/developed) and as the world is now in which the true Church of Jesus Christ (assuming that there might be one) would be anything more/different than what it is (assuming that the CofJCofLDS is God's church/organization) ?
Human minds cannot or at least should not be forced. History cannot be rewritten, cultures and societies developed independently from one another. Evolutionary factors are of course natural and expected.
Agency reigns supreme.
Where, when, and how would you expect that the true church of Jesus Christ would be bigger than it is? Again, on the hypothetical that the Mormon missionaries are teaching the truth.
Regards,
MG
I’ve heard this argument before, Physics Guy, and have never fully understood it within the context I’ve laid out above which from a certain perspective is reasonable.
Why would you expect the True Church to be larger than the LDS Church?
What do/would you see as a logical scenario of events within the confines/reality of the world as it was anciently (and how it had evolved/developed) and as the world is now in which the true Church of Jesus Christ (assuming that there might be one) would be anything more/different than what it is (assuming that the CofJCofLDS is God's church/organization) ?
Human minds cannot or at least should not be forced. History cannot be rewritten, cultures and societies developed independently from one another. Evolutionary factors are of course natural and expected.
Agency reigns supreme.
Where, when, and how would you expect that the true church of Jesus Christ would be bigger than it is? Again, on the hypothetical that the Mormon missionaries are teaching the truth.
Regards,
MG
I’ve heard this argument before, Physics Guy, and have never fully understood it within the context I’ve laid out above which from a certain perspective is reasonable.
Why would you expect the True Church to be larger than the LDS Church?
*bump
You're purposely taking PG out of context and ignoring the rest of what he wrote:
There are a lot of churches that call themselves the church of Jesus Christ.
So, saying that you need to have that in your church name no matter how well everyone knows that you’re about Jesus, and that you need more than ten million members but don’t need more than twenty million, is defining what Jesus’s church would have to be in a way that only makes sense if you’re just trying to fit the LDS church. It’s not an impressive argument at all. It’s just looking at how tall you are and then saying that this is the one perfect height.
I’ve heard this argument before, Physics Guy, and have never fully understood it within the context I’ve laid out above which from a certain perspective is reasonable.
Why would you expect the True Church to be larger than the LDS Church?
*bump
You're purposely taking PG out of context and ignoring the rest of what he wrote:
There are a lot of churches that call themselves the church of Jesus Christ.
So, saying that you need to have that in your church name no matter how well everyone knows that you’re about Jesus, and that you need more than ten million members but don’t need more than twenty million, is defining what Jesus’s church would have to be in a way that only makes sense if you’re just trying to fit the LDS church. It’s not an impressive argument at all. It’s just looking at how tall you are and then saying that this is the one perfect height.
I see what he wrote. I am interested in having him respond to what I posted. Please don’t throw in a monkey wrench to dissuade him from doing so. I think the points I’ve brought up deserve an answer.
Feel free to respond to the substance of what I posted without derailing. I think that trying to answer everything I’ve put in my original post to Physics Guy puts someone between a rock and a hard place, nonetheless, I would be interested in a lucid and logical response without a ‘side move’.
I see what he wrote. I am interested in having him respond to what I posted. Please don’t throw in a monkey wrench to dissuade him from doing so. I think the points I’ve brought up deserve an answer.
Feel free to respond to the substance of what I posted without derailing. I think that trying to answer everything I’ve put in my original post to Physics Guy puts someone between a rock and a hard place, nonetheless, I would be interested in a lucid and logical response without a ‘side move’.
Regards,
MG
(Bold is mine.)
And you should feel free to respond to the substance of what PG said, without taking him out of context and pretending that he was saying something else.
I don't believe so. It makes ALL the difference. Along with whether He lives today and was resurrected.
Regards,
MG
Please don’t take a single sentence out of context. What we’re discussing are the words attributed to Jesus. Those words include lotta odd instructions for how his followers should live their lives. Whether he was a real person, an amalgamation of Jewish prophets, or a purely fictional character, we can compare and contrast how Jesus told his followers to live their lives with the way his self-identified followers live theirs. All we have to do is apply the text to their actions. The source of the text is irrelevant for this exercise.
he/him
“I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time so that my children can live in peace.” — Thomas Paine
If Jesus truly rose from the dead and cared a lot about a church, I’d expect that church today to be a lot bigger than the COJCOLDS.
What do/would you see as a logical scenario of events within the confines/reality of the world as it was anciently (and how it had evolved/developed) and as the world is now in which the true Church of Jesus Christ (assuming that there might be one) would be anything more/different than what it is (assuming that the CofJCofLDS is God's church/organization) ?
Human minds cannot or at least should not be forced. History cannot be rewritten, cultures and societies developed independently from one another. Evolutionary factors are of course natural and expected.
Agency reigns supreme.
Where, when, and how would you expect that the true church of Jesus Christ would be bigger than it is? Again, on the hypothetical that the Mormon missionaries are teaching the truth.
Regards,
MG
Your argument here is internally contradictory. On the one hand, you seem to treat all past events as if they must have happened exactly the way they did. On the other, you claim that Agency reigns supreme, meaning the course of history is contingent, not necessary. If agency reigns supreme, then history since the first century could have had a near infinite number of outcomes, contingent on how people exercised their agency.
he/him
“I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time so that my children can live in peace.” — Thomas Paine
