Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!

[Shulem]

The Gold Plates as Foundational Text, Richard Lyman Bushman

No mention of a type between Mormon & Joseph at age 11:

One of the gaps in Book of Mormon history is an account of where he came from. He speaks of traveling at age eleven with his father to the land southward, suggesting his father was a diplomat, merchant, or military leader—a person with elite status.

No mention of a type between Mormon & Joseph at age 15:

Something must have brought Mormon to the public’s attention. Even so, selection to head the armies at fifteen suggests prodigious capacities. The year he was chosen general, he had also been “visited of the Lord,” adding visionary precocity to his other virtues.

No mention of a type between Mormon & Joseph at age 24:

Ammaron recommended that Mormon recover the plates at age twenty-four (Mormon 1:2).

Bushman furthers ignores how Mormon & Joseph are a type at age 24 by conceding the point that the record chronicles Mormon having possibly recovering the plates at 34 instead of 24 as explained earlier in this thread which I will repost below:

According to his account in the three hundred and forty and fifth year, when Mormon was thirty-four, his armies fled to the land of Jashon where Ammaron buried the plates. Mormon says “and behold I had gone according to the word of Ammaron and taken the plates of Nephi, and did make a record.” (Mormon 2:17) Either he went at this time, when thirty-four, to recover the plates, or, as the past perfect tense suggests, he had gone earlier, possibly at age twenty-four.

Hence, Bushman is open to either age (34 "or" 24) in which Mormon recovered the plates which further proves he doesn't make a type between Mormon & Joseph.

Mormon spends the next six verses explaining the circumstances that occurred over a 14 year period which brings the date to 344 AD (2:15) when he was 34 years old. Now things get interesting, very interesting! In the very next verse (16) we are informed that the date was 345 AD and "the Nephites did begin to flee before the Lamanites; and they were pursued until they came even to the land of Jashon." Thus, Mormon at age 35, was on the run to the land of Jashon! Now in verse 17 we learn something very important and this is when the anomaly appears or the so-called type falls apart.

And now, the city of Jashon was near the land where Ammaron had deposited the records unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed. And behold I had gone according to the word of Ammaron, and taken the plates of Nephi, and did make a record according to the words of Ammaron.

Thus we see how Mormon is *explaining* the story in real time, for the year 345 AD when he was age 35! That is when he got the plates from the hill Shim as commanded by Ammaron when he was a lad of age 11. The very next verse further confirms that Mormon retrieved and processed the plates when he was 35 years old!

And upon the plates of Nephi I did make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations; but upon these plates I did forbear to make a full account of their wickedness and abominations, for behold, a continual scene of wickedness and abominations has been before mine eyes ever since I have been sufficient to behold the ways of man.

Then, Mormon continues to mark the date in relaying the difficult times he was facing, saying, "in this year the people of Nephi again were hunted and driven" (verse 20), or in other words it was still 345 AD and the plates were safe and Mormon remained on the run. Thus we see that Joseph Smith got his dates confused in attempting to properly meld age 24 into the story! Much later, when Mormon was 65 years old, he relates how he returned to the hill to recover the records that he stashed away: "And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord." (4:23)

[Kishkumen]

You probably mentioned another parallel: producing a book that is made up of texts written by others.

[Shulem]

There are two differing camps for faithful believers of the Book of Mormon:

1. Inspired Fiction
2. Inspired Nonfiction

I'm wondering where our friend Don Bradley currently bases his faith in Book of Mormon historicity? There are rising voices in Mormonism that seem to be shifting with the times whereas the Book of Abraham is labeled as inspired pseudepigrapha, moreover, there may be some ready to put the Book of Mormon in the same class. Fancy that!

Don, where are youuuuuuu?

Declare your faith. What say ye, MG 2.0? We unbelievers want to know. Ammaron wants to know too.

[Shulem]

You probably mentioned another parallel: producing a book that is made up of texts written by others.

How about a parallel in stealing text from thyself or robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Is it possible that Smith played and toyed around with the fictitious name of "Ammaron?" Let's take a look at this name which is associated with the 11-15-24 parallel of Mormon & Smith and see what we find.

1. Mormon received instructions to obtain buried plates from a hill by a person named Ammaron.
2. Smith received instructions to obtain buried plates from a hill by a person named Moroni.

QUESTION:

Is it possible that the name Ammaron was specially crafted by the true author (Joseph Smith) as a hidden word play for Moroni? Interestingly enough, two record keepers in the Book of Mormon have names that share similar characteristics:

1. Amaron (279 BC)
2. Ammaron (321 AD)

Another variation is given in the name of a traitorous Nephite:

1. Ammoron (66 BC)

How much difference is there between Ammaron & Ammoron other than a single vowel? Both names are nearly identical except for the vowel. Is it possible that Smith assigned the letter "a" to Mormon's record keeper (Ammaron) in order to hide the difference between "maron" and "moron" and thus prevent watchful eyes in recognizing a similarity between the names of the two persons (Ammaron & Moroni) who charged plates to their respective recipients?

We have already seen the parallel with ages 11, 15, 24; so why not suspect Smith would perform a bit of word play between the characters who assigned the plates?

Ammaron → Ammaron → Ammoron → moron → Moron → Moroni


Abracadabra!

[Shulem]

Ammaron → Ammaron → Ammoron → moron → Moron → Moroni

Okay, time to give Joseph Smith a little of his own medicine and demonstrate that what you dish out comes back and what you sow is what you reap.

"Moroni"

What does the name mean? What does it mean according to Joseph Smith's reasoning? Let's recall how Joseph Smith reasoned the meaning of the name "Mormon":

Joseph Smith, History

Before I give a definition, however, to the word, let me say that the Bible in its widest sense means good; for the Savior says according to the gospel of John “I am the good shepherd;” and it will not be beyond the common use of terms to say that good is among the most important in use, and though known by various names in different languages, still its meaning is the same, and is ever in opposition to bad. We say from the Saxon, good; the Dane, God; the Goth, goda; the German gut; the Dutch, goed; the Latin, bonus; the Greek, kalos; the Hebrew, tob; and the Egyptian, mon. Hence, with the addition of more, or the contraction, mor, we have the word Mormon; which means literally more good. Yours. Joseph Smith.

Okay, with that understanding, let's look at the name Moroni and apply Smith's private brand of defining Book of Mormon names and see what we come up. Recall that Rachael died in childbirth while unhappily delivering and naming her poor son Ben-oni but Jacob changed his name to Benjamin (Gen 35:16) which means son of the right hand. But what does Ben-oni mean in Hebrew?

ben = son
oni = sorrow

Hence, Ben - oni, the son of my sorrow (בן הצער שלי).

So, now let's apply Smith's terminology of "mor" = more) to the name Moroni (Mor-oni) and see what we come up with:

Moroni (mor + oni) or (more + oni) = more sorrow

Hence, according to Smith's convoluted reasoning we could interpret his fictitious name "Moroni" as simply meaning more sorrow for poor Mormon to have to put with it!

[Kishkumen]

I really wish you would write a book, Shulem. You have so much great material.

[Shulem]

The character of Mormon really is a bit of a mystery in the story and a red flag to anyone looking for details and questioning how to make sense of a boy of 16 years being promoted to General of the Army in which he is charged with leading a nation into war. And who was Mormon Sr., his father? Commentators have asked that question and there simply is no answer in the story to reveal anything concerning Mormon's father other than he shared the same name, moreover of his missing mother and siblings, we know nothing. Information about mother and father remains under lock and key and is hidden from plain view. But this is suspect and leads to the idea that something is not quite right or something is off balance. Any normal story revealing the rise of a leader of state will tender information regarding credentials or qualifications in which a boy could wield such amazing power and influence over the military and the entire population in general.

I sense that Joseph Smith couldn't imagine his farmer-father into the story because he didn't view his father as anything more than a wonderful farmer and a man of great spiritual means, perhaps even like Samuel the prophet who anointed David to become king of Israel. But the text offers no pedigree or qualification for presenting a 16 year old boy to become General of the Army. We get nothing! Mormon Sr., remains a mystery. I think Joseph Smith left his father out of it because he knew he was treading on thin ice with his parallels and was not willing to chance his father catching on to what he was doing and perhaps take offence.

Folks, this is a case of a skeleton in the closet and I'm picking the bones apart and laying it on the table right here at Discuss Mormonism for everyone to see. Look at the bones!

[Shulem]

Pick Up the Bones

Collecting pieces of my family in an old pillow case
This one has a skull but it don't have a face
These look like the arms of father so strong
And the ring on this finger means my Grandma is gone

Here's some legs in a cloud where my sister once played
Here's some mud made of blood and these teeth are decayed
The ear of my brother, The hand of a friend
And I just can't put them back together again

Pick up the bones and set them on fire
Follow the smoke going higher and higher
Pick up the bones and wish them goodnight
Pray 'em a prayer and turn out the light

[Shulem]

I really wish you would write a book, Shulem. You have so much great material.

You're much too kind, Kishy. "l'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." (Jango Fett)

But bringing these issues up on this board will generate some attention and act as a direct challenge to the apologists who defend their faith in all things Mormonism. But clearly we see there will be divisions on whether the parallels are accepted as genuine or just coincidence. That is where the leaders of the Church are supposed to provide direction but they will continue to allow divisions among their members -- case in point, Book of Mormon geography.

President Nelson is another tired Mormon prophet want-to-be who has nothing new to offer the saints. It's time for him to go now. He's done. His time is about to expire and then another tired prophet want-to-be will take his place. One who does not prophesy or provide answers to questioning members. Mormonism is on the verge of splitting up and going into all kinds of directions. I hope this thread helps sow division among lurking saints who manage to take a seat in this room, listen up, and consider the contents of this thread in all seriousness.

[Shulem]

Any normal story revealing the rise of a leader of state will tender information regarding credentials or qualifications in which a boy could wield such amazing power and influence over the military and the entire population in general.

But the text offers no pedigree or qualification for presenting a 16 year old boy to become General of the Army.

Well, I'm afraid that I made a slight mistake in my statements above and correction is needed.

We have to take into consideration the mindset of Joseph Smith who was simply playing the role of Mormon in a fantasy that gave him personal satisfaction at the expense of everyone else who believed the tale was a genuine historical account when in fact it was NOT.

The text of the story offers a single qualification in which a teenage boy of the age of 16 assumed the position of General of the Army:

Blue = Qualification
Red = Confirmation for the Qualification

1 And it came to pass in that same year there began to be a war again between the Nephites and the Lamanites. And notwithstanding I being young, was large in stature; therefore the people of Nephi appointed me that I should be their leader, or the leader of their armies.

2 Therefore it came to pass that in my sixteenth year I did go forth at the head of an army of the Nephites, against the Lamanites; therefore three hundred and twenty and six years had passed away.

Everyone knows that Joseph Smith was a man large of stature, well built, and exercised physical prowess such as while wrestling.

A summary of the descriptions of Joseph Smith’s physical build indicates he was tall, over six feet in height (possibly as much as six feet two), this being considerably above normal in size for that period of time. He possessed strong arms and legs, a muscular chest, broad shoulders, and weighed around 200 pounds. Clearly, Joseph Smith had the necessary physical attributes which enabled him to exalt and achieve prominences in contests involving human strength and athletic prowess.

Therefore, Joseph Smith was qualified to be Lieutenant General because he was large in stature. Pride and conceit were in Joseph Smith's nature. He wanted to be like the fictional characters he portrayed in Book of Mormon stories. I trust that Dan Vogel would agree. Right?

Smith was made a Lieutenant General, a title previously held in the United States only by George Washington, and organized parades to show off the legion’s strength. (This was the military experience he would boast about during his Presidential campaign; he later added to his résumé a term as Nauvoo’s mayor.)