Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!

[Shulem]

It needs to be pointed out that apologetic explanations for the 11-15-24 are NOT doctrine or an official position of the Church. They are the ideas and explanations of apologists trying to make sense of how fantastic types and shadows of this nature are covertly embedded in the text. Thus, there are no pronouncements from Church leaders to convert the 11-15-24 into a prophetic type of Joseph Smith's own life. The apologists are on their own. They do not represent the Church and cannot present their apologetic reasoning as doctrine.

[Shulem]

In general terms, there is a choice in which believers and nonbelievers have in deciding what to make of the 11-15-24 connection between Mormon & Smith.

Believer:

1. It is a coincidence
2. It is a divine type & shadow that God brought to pass in comparing Mormon with Smith and vice versa

Unbeliever:

1. It is a coincidence
2. It is a surreptitious example of Smith pretending to be a character in the Book of Mormon

[Shulem]

In general terms, there is a choice in which believers and nonbelievers have in deciding what to make of the 11-15-24 connection between Mormon & Smith.

Everyone who learns about the 11-15-24 parallel in the Book of Mormon will need to make a choice and come to a conclusion that best meets their understanding of how to interpret the stark reality of what the implications may suggest.

Believer:

1. It is a coincidence
2. It is a divine type & shadow that God brought to pass in comparing Mormon with Smith and vice versa

I tend to think that 99% of all believers will chalk up the parallel as a divine type & shadow. But with that comes serious problems which I have raised in this thread and other points yet to be raised!

Unbeliever:

1. It is a coincidence
2. It is a surreptitious example of Smith pretending to be a character in the Book of Mormon

I tend to think that 99% of unbelievers will take a rational approach and chalk up this parallel as an obvious fantasy concocted by someone creating fiction for their own amusement.

[Shulem]

I tend to think that 99% of all believers will chalk up the parallel as a divine type & shadow. But with that comes serious problems which I have raised in this thread and other points yet to be raised!

President Nelson is the current lazy learning prophet of the Mormon church and should consider amending the heading for chapter one of Mormon's book. The current header is as follows:

The Book of Mormon

CHAPTER 1

Ammaron instructs Mormon concerning the sacred records—War commences between the Nephites and the Lamanites—The Three Nephites are taken away—Wickedness, unbelief, sorceries, and witchcraft prevail. About A.D. 321–26.

Here is a suggestion to bring the header up to date in explaining how ancient content in the Book of Mormon was a type and shadow of Joseph Smith:

The Book of Mormon

CHAPTER 1

Ammaron instructs Mormon concerning the sacred records—Known only to the Lord, Mormon's life was a type and shadow of Joseph Smith who also migrated with his family at age eleven, was visited of the Lord in a vision in his fifteenth year, and translated and published plates when twenty four years old. War commences between the Nephites and the Lamanites—The Three Nephites are taken away—Wickedness, unbelief, sorceries, and witchcraft prevail. About A.D. 321–26.

[Shulem]

Let me tell you how Mormon Joseph Smith tips his hand and his hat with a wink of an eye and a smirk on his face.

This is going to fun!

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni...

Mormon passes the torch on to his son.

2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ that I deliver these records into the hands of my son...

Here, at this very juncture it seems the author (Joseph Smith) lost track of the years and was not able to date the record so he fell back on "many hundred years" in order to produce a kind of date. But this is a time when the character Mormon would have surely known the date and record it in his record as so dutifully done throughout the book. Even his son Moroni when getting ready to close the record said, "Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon . . . . Behold, four hundred years have passed away since the coming of our Lord and Savior." (Mormon 8:1,6)

But, Smith lost track of the years while translating/dictating and in this instance blew smoke with his many hundred years because he was unable to produce a fixed date to chronical the record. This language however was somewhat familiar and used in past references by Jacob in expressing the passing of time into the future in a general context:

• Jacob 4:4 "For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we  knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his  glory many hundred years before his coming"

• Jacob 7:7 "And ye have led away much of this people that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses which is the right way; and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence."

I think we can see that Mormon tendered a red flag in not knowing the exact date since the coming of Christ and failing to log the year in the record! There simply was no excuse considering how important the situation at hand was and in in verse 9 he then says, "And now I, Mormon, proceed to finish out my record, which I take from the plates of Nephi; and I make it according to the knowledge and the understanding which God has given me." But no date is given!

So, what else can we detect as Mormon processes the plates and abridges the record?

7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.

Joseph Smith tips his hand while playing Mormon in his story. In his zeal to preserve the record for those of the future we see how Mormon doesn't know all things but attributes such knowledge to the Lord who knows everything that will come or happen in the future. Nonetheless, Mormon Joseph Smith winks his eye saying, "worketh in me to do" because what Smith did (11-15-24) is exactly what he had Mormon do but Mormon never knew about the type/shadow. Only Smith knew about it because it was his fabrication and he imbedded it into a fictitious story. You see, Joseph Smith was playing God!

It's right there in front of our eyes!

[Shulem]

I'm afraid there seems to be a problem with the so-called type and shadow of comparing Mormon and Joseph Smith when 24 years old. There is what appears to be an anomaly in the text wherein the numbers (dates) don't line up for a match. So, let's take a peek and see for ourselves. Shall we? And, remember that Philo Sofee warns us to never believe the apologists because they are trickters and won't tell you the truth. But you can trust Shulem! I will tell you the truth and lay out the facts so you can see them for what they are.

In Mormon chapter one we are given the 11-15-24 age combination of important events in Mormon's life. Chapter one does not list the actual AD year but we are informed that when he was 11 years old, "in this year there began to be a war" (1:8) and "in this same year a number of battles" (1:11). So, when Mormon was age 11 there was an ongoing war with a number of battles but then we are informed that the war quickly came to an end and "for the space of about four years" (1:12) peace ensued. At this time and on this date, Mormon would have been 15 years old in which he had his vision of Jesus -- 325 AD, respectfully.

Now we roll into chapter two when Mormon turns 16 (verse 2) and "in that same year there began to be a war" (2:1). We are informed that the date was 326 AD (2:2) when Mormon was age 16 and took command of the Nephite army. The war continues till Mormon's 17th year, 327 AD (2:3). As the years go on Mormon informs us how his army defeated the Lamanite king Aaron and how he fled in 330 AD (2:9) when he was 20 years old.

Mormon spends the next six verses explaining the circumstances that occurred over a 14 year period which brings the date to 344 AD (2:15) when he was 34 years old. Now things get interesting, very interesting! In the very next verse (16) we are informed that the date was 345 AD and "the Nephites did begin to flee before the Lamanites; and they were pursued until they came even to the land of Jashon." Thus, Mormon at age 35, was on the run to the land of Jashon! Now in verse 17 we learn something very important and this is when the anomaly appears or the so-called type falls apart.

And now, the city of Jashon was near the land where Ammaron had deposited the records unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed. And behold I had gone according to the word of Ammaron, and taken the plates of Nephi, and did make a record according to the words of Ammaron.

Thus we see how Mormon is *explaining* the story in real time, for the year 345 AD when he was age 35! That is when he got the plates from the hill Shim as commanded by Ammaron when he was a lad of age 11. The very next verse further confirms that Mormon retrieved and processed the plates when he was 35 years old!

And upon the plates of Nephi I did make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations; but upon these plates I did forbear to make a full account of their wickedness and abominations, for behold, a continual scene of wickedness and abominations has been before mine eyes ever since I have been sufficient to behold the ways of man.

Then, Mormon continues to mark the date in relaying the difficult times he was facing, saying, "in this year the people of Nephi again were hunted and driven" (verse 20), or in other words it was still 345 AD and the plates were safe and Mormon remained on the run. Thus we see that Joseph Smith got his dates confused in attempting to properly meld age 24 into the story! Much later, when Mormon was 65 years old, he relates how he returned to the hill to recover the records that he stashed away: "And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord." (4:23)

But the apologists will not tell you this because it discredits the idea of a type and shadow for age 24.

But you can trust Shulem. I will tell you the truth, always. I promise.

Thank you.



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Supplemental data for Mormon's chronology

346 AD, Mormon age 36 (2:22)
349 AD, Mormon age 39 (2:28)
350 AD, Mormon age 40 (2:28)
360 AD, Mormon age 50 (3:4)
361 AD, Mormon age 51 (3:7)
362 AD, Mormon age 52 (3:8)
363 AD, Mormon age 53 (4:1)
364 AD, Mormon age 54 (4:7)
366 AD, Mormon age 56 (4:10)
367 AD, Mormon age 57 (4:15)
375 AD, Mormon age 65 (4:16,17)
379 AD, Mormon age 69 (5:5)
380 AD, Mormon age 70 (5:6)
384 AD, Mormon age 74 (6:5)

[Shulem]

Now we roll into chapter two when Mormon turns 16 (verse 2) and "in that same year there began to be a war" (2:1). We are informed that the date was 326 AD (2:2) when Mormon was age 16 and took command of the Nephite army. The war continues till Mormon's 17th year, 327 AD (2:3). As the years go on Mormon informs us how his army defeated the Lamanite king Aaron and how he fled in 330 AD (2:9) when he was 20 years old.

I would like to point out how ridiculous it was for Joseph Smith to pick the name "Aaron" for the king of the Lamanites who was also an idolater. Why on God's green earth would a Lamanite king be named after the brother of Moses who ultimately rejected all forms of idolatry according to Nephite custom which was surely known by the Lamanites? It makes no sense whatsoever other than Joseph Smith throwing in biblical names to make his book seem biblical. It reminds me of Greek names such as Timothy, one of the Nephite disciples. That was an anachronism and a terrible error on Joseph Smith's part.

13 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did take possession of the city Desolation, and this because their number did exceed the number of the Nephites.

14 And they did also march forward against the city Teancum, and did drive the inhabitants forth out of her, and did take many prisoners both women and children, and did offer them up as  sacrifices unto their idol gods.

15 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and sixty and seventh year, the Nephites being angry because the Lamanites had sacrificed their women and their children, that they did go against the Lamanites with exceedingly great anger, insomuch that they did beat again the Lamanites, and drive them out of their lands.

It's hard to imagine a Lamanite king being named after Moses's brother. I don't buy it!

[Shulem]

Mormon, a professional historian, should have accounted for the recovering of Ammaron's plates when he was 24 years old and that should have been inserted PRIOR to verse fifteen!

See the following:

9 And now, the Lamanites had a king, and his name was Aaron; and he came against us with an army of forty and four thousand. And behold, I withstood him with forty and two thousand. And it came to pass that I beat him with my army that he fled before me. And behold, all this was done, and three hundred and thirty years (AGE 20) had passed away.

<snip>

15 And it came to pass that my sorrow did return unto me again, and I saw that the day of grace was passed with them, both temporally and spiritually; for I saw thousands of them hewn down in open rebellion against their God, and heaped up as dung upon the face of the land. And thus three hundred and forty and four years (AGE 34) had passed away.

16 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and forty and fifth year (AGE 35) the Nephites did begin to flee before the Lamanites; and they were pursued until they came even to the land of Jashon, before it was possible to stop them in their retreat.

17 And now, the city of Jashon was near the land where Ammaron had deposited the records unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed. And behold I had gone according to the word of Ammaron, and taken the plates of Nephi, and did make a record according to the words of Ammaron.

18 And upon the plates of Nephi I did make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations; but upon these plates I did forbear to make a full account of their wickedness and abominations, for behold, a continual scene of wickedness and abominations has been before mine eyes ever since I have been sufficient to behold the ways of man.

Thus we see that Joseph Smith screwed the type up and got the dates wrong when telling the story about the early wars he fought as the Nephite commander when he was a youth!

[Shulem]

17 And now, the city of Jashon was near the land where Ammaron had deposited the records unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed. And behold I had gone according to the word of Ammaron, and taken the plates of Nephi, and did make a record according to the words of Ammaron.

18 And upon the plates of Nephi I did make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations; but upon these plates I did forbear to make a full account of their wickedness and abominations, for behold, a continual scene of wickedness and abominations has been before mine eyes ever since I have been sufficient to behold the ways of man.

The apologist can't use the text to justify Mormon detailing his account of recovering the plates of Ammaron after he was 34 and 35 years old. The accounting of Mormon recovering the plates is shown to have occurred when he was 35 years old rather than 24 as the text previously prescribes. The apologist will attempt to rationalize the phrases "I had gone" and "I did make" as statements of Mormon looking back and doesn't reflect the time or year in which it's chronicled. Apologists just can't deal with that! They will assert that Mormon was throwing it in there without regard to the date and age in which it's placed. But other examples of this exact terminology help us see what was implied with the insertions and show it was based on a definite time and place:

And it came to pass that Antipus did march forth with a part of his army, leaving the remainder to maintain the city. But he did not march forth until I had gone forth with my little army, and came near the city Antiparah.

And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the  record of my people. And upon the plates which I made I did  engraven the record of my  father, and also our journeyings in the wilderness, and the prophecies of my father; and also many of mine own prophecies have I engraven upon them.

[Shulem]

I interrupt this thread to introduce an important message about myself attending a fabulous Led Zeppelin concert in the Kingdome in Seattle 1977. I was on the ground floor up close to the stage. I will never forget how Robert Plant looked me in the eyes with a curious look. That was a great moment!

Led Zeppelin Video

I was there, close to the front of the stage and loving every minute of it. It was a labor of love, baby!

Amen.