Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

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Marcus
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Marcus »

I Have Questions wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:50 am
Marcus wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:56 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Seriously, on this board you're going to try that???
That's a complete and utter fail as an insult.
It’s a bizarre comment. It’s akin to calling people that leave Mormonism “lazy learners”. The problem with it is that it is obviously much less mentally demanding to follow the Prophet than it is to do one’s own thinking and decision making. It’s a supercilious way of saying “I’m better than you”, “I’m smarter than you”. That poster seems to look down on all but his chosen few posters whom he deems sufficiently qualified to converse with his superior intellect. At least that’s how he comes across on this board, intentionally or otherwise.
And now we're back to a variation on that bizarre comment.
...Oh no, I think it is perfectly possible for someone to opt out of Mormonism because it’s too complicated for them. If people can’t tell the difference between that and a compliment to Mormonism, that’s on them...
Of course it's possible. I don't think I have EVER heard it expressed by anyone except this poster, while the opposite is heard frequently. The "compliment to Mormonism" bit is a red herring, because the insult to individuals is still implied, not to mention that the underlying premise is still faulty, as you noted:
It’s akin to calling people that leave Mormonism “lazy learners”. The problem with it is that it is obviously much less mentally demanding to follow the Prophet than it is to do one’s own thinking and decision making...
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:If you find support from the people I ordinarily clash with, that’s not exactly a victory. At least not in my mind.
Lol what do you mean by victory, is this a competition? Kish because folks think you are full of crap does not make it a competition or sport, they just see it as you are full of crap, which I more or less agree with. I get you believe you are some sort of authority on all things Mormonism, however others disagree.
Kishkumen wrote:My view of politics is biased, and I stand by it. I can see you still haven’t bothered to figure out why I call you entitled. Oh well.
Sure as is your view of Christianity and Mormonism. I thought I had it figured out, being you think I have no "right" to criticize Mormonism as a Christian and I need to somehow submit to your definition of Christianity. But please explain your opinion as to why I am entitled being I am struggling figuring it out.
Kishkumen wrote:I called Protestant theology heterodox from an Orthodox Christian perspective. I called your view of Mormonism skewed because it comes from a polemical discourse. Both of those statements are descriptive and quite fair.
I have studied Mormonism, as an adult for over 45 years, 33 years very seriously. What have I studied in all those years which forms my view of Mormonism, that would conclusively be classified as polemical discourse? I assume you have read Mormonism Shadow or Reality as I have....so beyond that what have I read and studied, for you to make such an assertion. If you have not read Mormonism Shadow or Reality....how can you possibly assert it is polemical?
Kishkumen wrote:You are caught in the binary. You can’t see my to escape it and keep trying to drag me into it. All you have on your side is your tenacity.
LoL, how is my asking you to back up your assertions dragging you into it? I have to ask, do you think you are some sort of elite member of a forum that is all knowing to Mormonism? I know you said "Dean Robbers" is basically your benchmark of truth. Are you blotted enough to believe you are the final court of arbitration to Mormon apologetics, truth claims, and doctrines? Do you believe you are more intelligent than those that dare to disagree with you? You certainly come off that way.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Kishkumen »

Markk wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2024 2:08 am
Lol what do you mean by victory, is this a competition? Kish because folks think you are full of crap does not make it a competition or sport, they just see it as you are full of crap, which I more or less agree with. I get you believe you are some sort of authority on all things Mormonism, however others disagree.
Yeah, the usual suspects saying the usual things. Yawn. I like to think about Mormonism, and I pay attention to others who have interesting things to say about Mormonism. I look forward to interacting with those people. You aren’t one of those people by your own choice.
Sure as is your view of Christianity and Mormonism. I thought I had it figured out, being you think I have no "right" to criticize Mormonism as a Christian and I need to somehow submit to your definition of Christianity. But please explain your opinion as to why I am entitled being I am struggling figuring it out.
I love how some unfortunate souls mistake disagreement for being told they have no right to have their own opinion. Does this actually work? You have a right to say things. I have a right to disagree with them. Is that so difficult to grasp?

I think those who pay attention can see why I said you were behaving like an entitled a-hole. Maybe you could join them in paying attention to what I already wrote.
I have studied Mormonism, as an adult for over 45 years, 33 years very seriously. What have I studied in all those years which forms my view of Mormonism, that would conclusively be classified as polemical discourse? I assume you have read Mormonism Shadow or Reality as I have....so beyond that what have I read a studied, for you to make such an assertion. If you have not read Mormonism Shadow or Reality....how can you possibly assert it is polemical?
This is really a hash, man. Would you mind editing your writing into something coherent? I get you are upset, but, please, make your messages into something resembling correct English. Yes, I have read Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, the book with the title that lays bare exactly how unbiased its creators were in producing it.
LoL, how is my asking you to back up your assertions dragging you into it? I have to ask, do you think you are some sort of elite member of a forum that is all knowing to Mormonism? I know you said "Dean Robbers" is basically your benchmark of truth. Are you blotted enough to believe you are the final court of arbitration to Mormon apologetics, truth claims, and doctrines? Do you believe you are more intelligent than those that dare to disagree with you? You certainly come off that way.
No, you seem to think you are entitled to have me approach everything about Mormonism through your binary framework. You come here itching for a fight because I didn’t approach the doctrine of deification in the way you felt would prove it to be some horrible thing. My frame of reference was much broader, and my purpose was entirely different, but you refuse to accept that. In your view, I just did it wrong by doing it differently. I am completely uninterested in your approach to Mormonism. You are an anti- Mormon, and I have no interest in what you have to say about the topic. I am interested in what the qualified historians and other scholars have to say. I am interested in what thoughtful people without some axe to grind have to say. I want to be in conversation with those people.

Dean Robbers is someone I respect because he often makes thought provoking observations. Sorry, but I haven’t seen anything like that from you. Ever. You behave like some 12-year-old kid with a chip on his shoulder. I have found this entire exchange to be a real drag and waste of my time.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Jersey Girl »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2024 2:56 am
Markk wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2024 2:08 am
Lol what do you mean by victory, is this a competition? Kish because folks think you are full of crap does not make it a competition or sport, they just see it as you are full of crap, which I more or less agree with. I get you believe you are some sort of authority on all things Mormonism, however other s disagree.
Yeah, the usual suspects saying the usual things. Yawn. I like to think about Mormonism, and I pay attention to others who have interesting things to say about Mormonism. I look forward to interacting with those people. You aren’t one of those people by your own choice.

Sure as is your view of Christianity and Mormonism. I thought I had it figured out, being you think I have no "right" to criticize Mormonism as a Christian and I need to somehow submit to your definition of Christianity. But please explain your opinion as to why I am entitled being I am struggling figuring it out.
I love how some unfortunate souls mistake disagreement for being told they have no right to have their own opinion. Does this actually work? You have a right to say things. I have a right to disagree with them. Is that so difficult to grasp?

I think those who pay attention can see why I said you were behaving like an entitled a-hole. Maybe you could join them in paying attention to what I already wrote.

I have studied Mormonism, as an adult for over 45 years, 33 years very seriously. What have I studied in all those years which forms my view of Mormonism, that would conclusively be classified as polemical discourse? I assume you have read Mormonism Shadow or Reality as I have....so beyond that what have I read a studied, for you to make such an assertion. If you have not read Mormonism Shadow or Reality....how can you possibly asset it is polemical?
This is really a hash, man. Would you mind editing your writing into something coherent? I get you are upset, but, please, make your messages into something resembling correct English. Yes, I have read Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, the book with the title that lays bare exactly how unbiased its creators were in producing it.
LoL, how is my asking you to back up your assertions dragging you into it. I have to ask, do you think your are some sort of elite member of a forum that is all knowing to Mormonism? I know you said "Dean Robbers" isbasically you benchmark of truth. Are you blotted enough to believe you are the final court of arbitration to Mormon apologetics, truth claims, and doctrines? Do you believe you are more intelligent than those that dare to disagree with you? You certainly come off that way.
No, you seem to think you are entitled to have me approach everything about Mormonism through your binary framework. You come here itching for a fight because I didn’t approach the doctrine of deification in the way you felt would prove it to be some horrible thing. My frame of reference was much broader, and my purpose was entirely different, but you refuse to accept that. In your view, I just did it wrong by doing it differently. I am completely uninterested in your approach to Mormonism. You are an anti- Mormon, and I have no interest in what you have to say about the topic. I am interested in what the qualified historians and other scholars have to say. I am interested in what thoughtful people without some axe to grind have to say. I want to be in conversation with those people.
Everything you said. Which is why he has a lengthy and tedious history of dragging threads out to the n'th degree with his meanderings re:politics in Paradise.
Dean Robbers is someone I respect because he often makes thought provoking observations.
True. He's able to address a variety of topics.
Sorry, but I haven’t seen anything like that from you. Ever. You behave like some 12-year-old kid with a chip on his shoulder. I have found this entire exchange to be a real drag and waste of my time.
Advice you didn't ask for and probably don't need. When you find yourself in a monontonous game of tug o' war, quit wasting your heartbeats and let go of the rope. The "foes" feature is your friend. Write that down.
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We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
Markk
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Markk »

KIsh wrote...Yeah, the usual suspects saying the usual things. Yawn. I like to think about Mormonism, and I pay attention to others who have interesting things to say about Mormonism. I look forward to interacting with those people. You aren’t one of those people by your own choice.
LOl sure their inferior intellect bore you superior intellect. So I choose not to meet your standards? Classic.
KIsh wrote...I love how some unfortunate souls mistake disagreement for being told they have no right to have their own opinion. Does this actually work? You have a right to say things. I have a right to disagree with them. Is that so difficult to grasp?

I think those who pay attention can see why I said you were behaving like an entitled a-hole. Maybe you could join them in paying attention to what I already wrote.
HuH???? Focus, the issue is you don't back up your scattered assertions. Remember we, the unfortunate souls, are all to boring to talk to.
Kish wrote..This is really a hash, man. Would you mind editing your writing into something coherent? I get you are upset, but, please, make your messages into something resembling correct English. Yes, I have read Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, the book with the title that lays bare exactly how unbiased its creators were in producing it.
So what else did I read and study to form my opinions Kish? After all you should know to make such a statement, right?

In your reading of MSoR ....what chapters are skewed? What chapters are polemic?
Kish wrote...No, you seem to think you are entitled to have me approach everything about Mormonism through your binary framework. You come here itching for a fight because I didn’t approach the doctrine of deification in the way you felt would prove it to be some horrible thing. My frame of reference was much broader, and my purpose was entirely different, but you refuse to accept that. In your view, I just did it wrong by doing it differently. I am completely uninterested in your approach to Mormonism. You are an anti- Mormon, and I have no interest in what you have to say about the topic. I am interested in what the qualified historians and other scholars have to say. I am interested in what thoughtful people without some axe to grind have to say. I want to be in conversation with those people.

Dean Robbers is someone I respect because he often makes thought provoking observations. Sorry, but I haven’t seen anything like that from you. Ever. You behave like some 12-year-old kid with a chip on his shoulder. I have found this entire exchange to be a real drag and waste of my time.
LOL, LOL asking you to support your accusations about myself and the Tanners make me entitled? How did I itch for a fight when you stated my view of Joseph Smith is skewed?

If your are uninterested at my approach to Mormonism, then why on earth are you critical of my approach, what a tool. You are a poser in my opinion.

Again I see that I am just boring and a waste of time from a person that thinks they are a gift to LDS apologetics and a elite member of this board, as if that would even mean anything, but in reality has been side stepped and ignored, with no relevant contribution.

Just a little advice, if you want to build a following in post Mormonism, don't slam the Tanners, the Babe Ruth of post Mormonism and de-construction. Know your audience.
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Dr. Shades
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Dr. Shades »

Hi Kishkumen,

Regardless of how you may feel about your exchange with Markk, he did ask a question that I found interesting. Allow me to rephrase and re-ask:

Do you believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a true prophet the way modern-day Mormons define the term?

Thanks in advance.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Kishkumen »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2024 3:15 am
Advice you didn't ask for and probably don't need. When you find yourself in a monontonous game of tug o' war, quit wasting your heartbeats and let go of the rope. The "foes" feature is your friend. Write that down.
Thanks, Jersey. I agree. Time to pull the plug on this “conversation.” Foes it is. You generally have better sense for when to pull the plug than I do.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Kishkumen
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2024 8:09 am
Hi Kishkumen,

Regardless of how you may feel about your exchange with Markk, he did ask a question that I found interesting. Allow me to rephrase and re-ask:

Do you believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a true prophet the way modern-day Mormons define the term?

Thanks in advance.
Probably not. I don't think I would define anything in the way that modern-day LDS people would define their terms. Most LDS people take the word prophet for granted, and they do not recognize how that term has evolved over time. Joseph Smith had no knowledge of how the term had evolved over time. Joseph Smith created his own concept of prophet and then filled that role.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Markk
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:01 pm
Dr. Shades wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2024 8:09 am
Hi Kishkumen,

Regardless of how you may feel about your exchange with Markk, he did ask a question that I found interesting. Allow me to rephrase and re-ask:

Do you believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a true prophet the way modern-day Mormons define the term?

Thanks in advance.
Probably not. I don't think I would define anything in the way that modern-day LDS people would define their terms. Most LDS people take the word prophet for granted, and they do not recognize how that term has evolved over time. Joseph Smith had no knowledge of how the term had evolved over time. Joseph Smith created his own concept of prophet and then filled that role.
Most certainly a charlatan, sex with woman was in a large part a means to the end in fulfilling that role. My question to you would be do you believe Joseph was inspired by God, given another cryptic answer.
Marcus
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Re: Cause of my Tanner Kerfuffle

Post by Marcus »

...Joseph Smith created his own concept of prophet and then filled that role...
That sounds exactly like what Warren Jeffs did.
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