Abuse, Sex, Power, in the News

[_asbestosman]

You are assholes for the pain and misery your cult inflicted upon countless women throughout its history. You are assholes for deceiving others and yourselves by playing down the reality of polygamy and the reality of it in your history.

1) I do not now nor will I ever support or condone manipulation, coercion, and especially the abuse of women, children, or anyone else.

2) Polygamy isn't the issue: abuse and coercion are the issues.

3) I do not now nor will I ever support or condone manipulation, coercion, and especially the abuse of women, children, or anyone else.

4) Am I also a moral reprobrate because I like many things about Thomas Jefferson even though he was a slave owner? How about liking much about Martin Luther despite despising his anti-semitism?

5) I do not now nor will I ever support or condone manipulation, coercion, and especially the abuse of women, children, or anyone else.

[_ajax18]

You totally disagree with me about justice. Perhaps it is a human invention but how can you be for equality if you['re not for justice? To me justice seems to be a fundamental property of the universe. We may think that we are exempt due to our short existences, but I would tend to hold that the universe has a way of settling all scores

Even when I hear the leftist who champion death penatly. I think they started changing theie attitudes when homicide started hitting closer to home, but anyway most leftist I've spke with are all for capital punishment. Thre defenses are not necessarily to do with protecting socieity (since it ultimately costs more to jail someone for life) than execute him. They mention words like Justice and punishment and say that this is why. Is the parent to justice human vengeance desire?

If justice lives no longer than I do, I would give my life to stregthen it without a second thought. A world without justice is just as much capricious, cruel, and ugly as any world that carries only mercy. Why are some people allowed to enforce and guard their rights to be justly treated by other humans and others are expected to bear the injustice, preferable without complaining. There are a lot of people in this countrty being mistreated by a powerful few. To me that's a recipe for revolution, and as horible as war can be, I'll rejoice when that war comes. What could be more important that even seeking to restore one's rights as a human being. To me this truly is worth dying for. The reasons are there, now we just need to find the righ time to make a move.l

[_truth dancer]

Hi Ajax...

You totally disagree with me about justice.

I totally agree with your comment by Skousen. :-) Justice makes no sense to me other than a human ego need/want.

Perhaps it is a human invention but how can you be for equality if you['re not for justice?

They are two completely separate issues in my opinion.

To me justice seems to be a fundamental property of the universe.

Could you give me an example of justice being a property of the universe outside the human experience? I don't see this at all, in fact I would say Justice has nothing to do with anything other than the human experience.

We may think that we are exempt due to our short existences, but I would tend to hold that the universe has a way of settling all scores

Again, I do not see justice as anything by a man made ego need. Further I don't know what "settling all scores" even means outside the human experience. Even in our human experience I just do not see life in this framework in any sense.

The whole justice/mercy paradigm doesn't work for me.

:-)

~dancer~

[_Inconceivable]

We may think that we are exempt due to our short existences, but I would tend to hold that the universe has a way of settling all scores

Again, I do not see justice as anything by a man made ego need. Further I don't know what "settling all scores" even means outside the human experience. Even in our human experience I just do not see life in this framework in any sense.

The whole justice/mercy paradigm doesn't work for me.

:-)

~dancer~

wow. Justice: Man made. That is quite profound. Perhaps you are right. I see no evidence of this concept in any other species. If all other life were to have an intelligent language, I don't think they would have a word for nor a description of it.

Maybe this is yet another figment I might be able to let go.

[_ajax18]

This is a deep concept truth dancer, that justice is manmade. I wish I had all day to think about these things, but life presents a daily grind. Maybe when I retire.

You're definitely right in that justice does not seem to exist in other animals. What did you think of Skousen's idea that God's honor was His power. In other words Skousen proposed that even the rocks had some intelligence. God's power was that He had built up so much trust through eons of sinless living that even things with as little intelligence as a rock actually trusted him as good and obeyed his voice.

I still want to cling to the idea of all intelligences crying to God for justice. I don't think that justice should only be available to the most intelligent/powerful beings. I would include animals, plants, and even nonliving intelligences.

My examples for justice are a stretch, but here goes. The first law of physics says that for ever action there is an equal but opposite reaction. I know this only applies to physical sciences, but since all matter is ultimately physical including human beings, I would like to think that nothing escapes the 1st law of physics. Granted, connecting the dots on that one would be an infinitie task. I'm just postulating that the connection must exist. Maybe I just hope it exists, but I believe I'm hoping for a good thing, and that hope in and of itself I believe to be good (meaning in the best interest of all intelligence). The Chinese speak of yen and yang. I see this happen a lot in that nearly everything that has advantages, is not without its drawbacks. We choose things as good because the disadvantages are not currently forseen. Yet eternally perhaps there is no good or evil, because every good must eventually reveal an evil that negates it?

Yet the evidence seems to side with you for now that justice is just a manmade entity. That totally destroys my paradigm of peace that I had built (also built by my parents) through life. It's how I got along with people and encouraged myself to abstain from vengeance, power seeking (both passivly agressive as well as violently agressive). Now I have to build a new way to deal with the world. I'm afraid it's going to have to wait until I finish this practical. I've got a lot of money riding on it, as does our society that invested in me.

Let me know if you've figured anything out, and perhaps I can investigate it later.

All this talk seems pointless, yet I find philosophy very pertinent. I've been in the legal profession and the medical profession. Both of these ultimately put a $ amount on human freedom and health, and quality of life.

Do you fear death? I thought that losing my religious belief would make me fear death, but it hasn't. I fear the sufferings that life could

[_Roger Morrison]

"Justice"??? From Merriam-Webster On Line:

1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b: judge c: the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a: the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1): the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2): conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c: the quality of conforming to law
3: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness (Bold added by RM)

Interesting synergistics between you two :-) The predominant thought in the above, as i see it is "impartial"... In that light, and confirming my long held understanding of "justice", Universal "justice" is according to "...the first law of physics..." expressed by Ajax. There is no escaping it. Cause & effect. Consequent to every action, without prejudice, or judgement. Not that we always correctly connect the dots, but they are there. Seen, understood, or not.

I think this is a hard concept for religious-mind types--who generally think "mercy" and "supplication"-- to accept. The world of sciences could not exist without "impartial justice" IMSCO... So much for Universal ("God's") Justice.

Human "Justice" is far more fickle ;-) "Mercy tempering justice" et al, does not always end impartially. Family, friends, money, status and lawyers can all influence man-made justice. Punishment/reward fitting the crime/effort depends on much stuff that follows our individual, and collective, evolution through barbarism to empatheticism (a word?:-), via thinking and feeling.

An expanding awareness of our purpose to care about the merciless effects of Natural Justice, and share world resources via human-mercy for those who are victims of circumstances, not only of nature, but of human indifference, is essential to abide the teachings of the quintessential Humanist, Jesus of Nazareth.

Not quite there yet, but getting closer. IMSCO, that is. Ya can read/see it in the News... Warm regards, Roger

[_beastie]

I posted this question on an earlier thread TD with no response but it's been on my mind lately and I can't help but restate it.

Does free will exist? Can these "rapist" really help being who they are? Why are they not simply victims of their own genetics and conditioning?

People who lived 1000 years ago were clearly "conditioned," to a different morality than we are conditioned to today? Who decides what morality human beings should be programmed to folllow? Who does this ultimately serve? Is it all just a question of power and who gets to manipulate the puppet? Power obtained through masculine violence and agression, or power obtained through feminine passive agression. They both are ultimately self serving and people using mechanisms.

Ajax,

I did see your question on the other thread, but it's one that takes some thought before responding (and then I got caught up in other stuff and forgot about it altogether).

I once read that a scholar in human evolution once stated that free will is an illusion, but a necessary illusion. I agree with that to a certain extent. My thoughts have been heavily influenced by Robert Wright, in particular his book The Moral Animal.

I think that we have “conditional” free will, so to speak. Wright used the analogy of an electronic device with certain dials. The placement of the dials themselves are preset and likely resistant to alteration, but the dials CAN be adjusted within their given parameters. I think this means we human beings have certain predispositions that we likely cannot alter. Sadly, I do think pedophilia is an example of that. I do not believe these people “choose” to be sexually attracted to children. But that does not mean they are destined to act upon those inclinations. So there is definitely a type of “free will”. We can choose to resist our natural impulses, to certain degrees (and the degrees are likely preset).

Actually, my thoughts on this matter were also heavily influenced by my son’s very ill period with bipolar. First, let me assure people who will express concern that he is fine, now – bipolar IS a fairly easily treated and controlled disease IF people commit to taking their meds (which often is a problem, but is not with my son, who is, and always has been, totally committed to his mental health – he knows if he had diabetes, it would be irresponsible not to take insulin, and we view bipolar in the same way). But as often happens with bipolar it took a lot of experimentation, lasting over years, to find the right medications for him. He suffered a lot during that interim, and so did the people around him. He was often obnoxious and impulsive. If people didn’t know better, they would think he was “choosing” bad behavior. And yet when he was properly medicated, that behavior turned off like a switch. He is now calm, mature, and responsible, a pleasure to be around.

Now I know that bipolar is an “abnormal” condition, but we can still learn about how the brain works from abnormalities. This experience taught me that behavior we almost universally link with “choice” is actually controlled, at least to some degree, by the chemical soup in our brains.

This belief influences how I view the judicial system. I do not believe the judicial system ought to be punitive or vengeful. I believe its sole job should be to separate dangerous people from the rest of society. And yes, that means that the accepted view of morality does change from culture to culture. However, even given that fact, I think it is clear that some behaviors always cause pain and suffering for others, and we can safely assume a universal morality regarding those issues.

[_ajax18]

That's an interesting response Beastie.

It seems as though you've made the standard for morality, whatever causes pain to others. It seems like there a lot of accpetable behaviors that cause pain to others even within a universal morality. Anyone who has to get up and go to work knows that. While I've seen a lot of change in social justice e.g. slavery etc. over time, I think our working conditions are actually going backward in this country. The dollar and the people who control it, cam be more terrible than the worst slave drivers in my opinion.

The position with pedophilia seems similar to what the church says about homosexuality. You may have the desire, but you still have the choice to fight it and not act on it. I thinki you're right that pedophilia isn't chosen. Perhaps that's why it's so difficult to understand as is homosexuality to someone like myself. I haven't experienced either inclinations.

[_GoodK]

I think the problem is with our accommodation of religious practices in general.
We need to stop pretending like people have the right to worship in whatever way they seem fit.
I think people should have the right to believe whatever they wish, but once they start acting on such beliefs, the word "right" should be changed to "privilege" and whatever action they are doing should be evaluated by society.
Once they start acting insane, we should revoke the privilege to remain in society and send them off to get help.
My opinion: All the women involved in the FLDS fiasco should be court ordered to a mental facility. The men should as well. The children should be placed in foster care. Once they have come to terms with whatever mental defect or brainwashing that they have endured, then they can have another shot at believing whatever they wish in society. If they begin to congregate in obscure locations, and begin to scare groups of young girls into marrying old men, we should revoke their privilege again.

We jail millions of people for smoking grass every year, yet we don't jail people for telling their kids they won't make it to heaven unless they do ____________. Or that they will go to Outer Darkness if they _________. Or will reside in some pseudo-hell with Hitler and his cronies if they don't do___________.

The problem here, as I see it, is not with the FLDS or the LDS practice or former practice of polygamy. The problem is disgusting old men (in this specific situation) and the shelter one finds when they proclaim their belief in god(in general). Polygamy in the Old Testament has been mentioned, but this only goes to show that men have behaved disgustingly and gotten away with it for at least 2000 years. The first prophet and originator of the Islam was married to an adolescent girl (If I recall correctly). I don't think the problem is any specific religion, but rather, the tolerance for religion in society and our willingness to accept insane behavior as someone's "beliefs".

[_beastie]

It seems as though you've made the standard for morality, whatever causes pain to others.

That's an oversimplification.