Happy Birthday President Nelson!

[Morley]

Dodging the question. Typical MG 2.0 maneuver.

I'm not dodging. It's a fact, many innocent people have been slaughtered throughout human history as a result of misunderstandings and built up tensions.

Regards,
MG

MG, you're pretty quick to call out evil when you see it. Why not here?

Why would you suggest that MMM was the result of a misunderstanding, instead of what it really was--unadulterated evil. It was evil in intent, and it was evil in practice.

Where was God in this? The perpetrators were supposedly people of God, truly God's chosen, with access to the Holy Ghost. Brigham and his lieutenants were supposedly all led and guided by the Creator God--more so than anyone else on Earth at the time. As malkie suggests, they must have prayed and prayed and prayed before they got off their knees and murdered men, women, and children. Folks with the best access to God callously planned out and performed an act of unspeakable evil, then lied about it and blamed it on the Indians. Then the one true prophet of an all-knowing God shrugged his shoulders, covered it up, and blamed it on the Indians.

And yet, here you are, brushing it all off as merely a case of miscommunication.



edit: I would have thought that you'd agree that evil done in the name of God deserves it's own special room in Hell.

[Rivendale]

Will the Fanchers be rewarded for providing opposition in all things after they were innocently slaughtered?

There have been so many 'innocents' slaughtered throughout human history it is almost impossible to wrap our minds around how God will 'make it all right'.

Wouldn't you agree?

Regards,
MG

These slaughters have to happen. It is baked into the system from day one. There must be opposition in all things. That rule right there rigs the system for all the apocalyptic horror to happen. Would you agree that "logically" there could be a world where everyone did the right thing of their own choosing? (Just like in the Celestial kingdom?)

[MG 2.0]

I would hope that in whatever 'compensation plan' is part of the eternal judgement that all of the innocents that have been slaughtered and had their lives taken away will receive just renumeration. And truthfully, the only way I can see that happening is thorough the merits and grace of Jesus Christ and His Atonement which will 'cover' all the harms and injustices that have occurred in this fallen world.

I hope the Fanchers and all other innocents throughout the history of the world that have moved on to the other side of the veil are figuratively/literally in the arms of their Creator and are in a good place.

I think the perpetrators of the crime will be judged according to God's will and Christ's mercy according to their own knowledge and willfull wrongdoing in this unfortunate event in LDS history.

Regards,
MG

So the Fanchers were essentially killed by God's plan? God created the system allowing free will and opposition in all things. In fact opposition is mandatory. The Saints at MMM were carrying out the plan that was a instituted as a necessary template before the creation of the world. Correct?

Let me ask you this. What would you see as a better plan than the one that is obviously in effect? Assuming there is a creator God who rules over all. Would you remove the opposition? How so? Agency? How so?

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

I do see a better plan. Do you agree that "logically" there could be a world that everyone chose to do the right thing by their own fruition?

[MG 2.0]

I'm not dodging. It's a fact, many innocent people have been slaughtered throughout human history as a result of misunderstandings and built up tensions.

Regards,
MG

MG, you're pretty quick to call out evil when you see it. Why not here?

Why would you suggest that MMM was the result of a misunderstanding, instead of what it really was--unadulterated evil. It was evil in intent, and it was evil in practice.

Where was God in this? The perpetrators were supposedly people of God, truly God's chosen, with access to the Holy Ghost. Brigham and his lieutenants were supposedly all led and guided by the Creator God--more so than anyone else on Earth at the time. As malkie suggests, they must have prayed and prayed and prayed before they got off their knees and murdered men, women, and children. Folks with the best access to God callously planned out and performed an act of unspeakable evil, then lied about it and blamed it on the Indians. Then the one true prophet of an all-knowing God shrugged his shoulders, covered it up, and blamed it on the Indians.

And yet, here you are, brushing it all off as merely a case of miscommunication.



edit: I would have thought that you'd agree that evil done in the name of God deserves it's own special room in Hell.

The whole episode was evil. That doesn’t negate in any way everything else I’ve said. And the fact is, we don’t know for sure what part prayer and ACTUAL answers had to play. I would be interested in whether you might be able to give any firsthand affidavit from one of the perpetrators who said that God had ordered them to attack the Fancher party.

What we do know, like I said, is that tensions were high and miscommunication and misunderstanding ruled the day. Emotions definitely got the better of those that killed innocent victims including children.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I do see a better plan. Do you agree that "logically" there could be a world that everyone chose to do the right thing by their own fruition?

No. But I would be interested in how you see this as a viable ‘plan’ knowing that human beings are of many different natures and states of being. As it is, lots of people. Some doing stupid things, others not…and a whole lot of in between. Gonna change that?

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

I do see a better plan. Do you agree that "logically" there could be a world that everyone chose to do the right thing by their own fruition?

No. But I would be interested in how you see this as a viable ‘plan’ knowing that human beings are of many different natures and states of being. As it is, lots of people. Some doing stupid things, others not…and a whole lot of in between. Gonna change that?

Regards,
MG

I said is it logically possible. Could it happen? I am not talking about the probability of it happening. Isn't it possible that you could throw a deck of cards and the only cards facing up were hearts? Is it possible a world could exist where everyone does evil?

[MG 2.0]

No. But I would be interested in how you see this as a viable ‘plan’ knowing that human beings are of many different natures and states of being. As it is, lots of people. Some doing stupid things, others not…and a whole lot of in between. Gonna change that?

Regards,
MG

I said is it logically possible.

And I say it’s not. Look around. The evidence is all around you unless you are living in a cave.

Could it happen?

No. Are human beings carbon copies or robots?

I am not talking about the probability of it happening.

Well, that’s something. Rather, it’s an impossibility.

Is it possible a world could exist where everyone does evil?

Everyone does. That’s NOT the same thing as saying there could be a world in which all human beings do only good.

We are all sinners. Thus, God had a plan to save as many as possible without forcing them against their will to do good. Sounds like that’s what you would rather have. In LDS theology it was Lucifer that suggested a similar plan.

I don’t think you have a viable alternate plan to the one that’s been in operation for millennia.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

I said is it logically possible.

And I say it’s not. Look around. The evidence is all around you unless you are living in a cave.

Could it happen?

No. Are human beings carbon copies or robots?

I am not talking about the probability of it happening.

Well, that’s something. Rather, it’s an impossibility.

Is it possible a world could exist where everyone does evil?

Everyone does. That’s NOT the same thing as saying there could be a world in which all human beings do only good.

We are all sinners. Thus, God had a plan to save as many as possible without forcing them against their will to do good. Sounds like that’s what you would rather have. In LDS theology it was Lucifer that suggested a similar plan.

I don’t think you have a viable alternate plan to the one that’s been in operation for millennia.

Regards,
MG

You are not following me. I didn't say make everyone do the right thing like Satan. Is it possible to make the right choices 2 times in a row? How about 3? How about 4? If we have a multiverse do you think out of the infinite you's that you could live your entire life making all the right choices?

[MG 2.0]

And I say it’s not. Look around. The evidence is all around you unless you are living in a cave.



No. Are human beings carbon copies or robots?



Well, that’s something. Rather, it’s an impossibility.



Everyone does. That’s NOT the same thing as saying there could be a world in which all human beings do only good.

We are all sinners. Thus, God had a plan to save as many as possible without forcing them against their will to do good. Sounds like that’s what you would rather have. In LDS theology it was Lucifer that suggested a similar plan.

I don’t think you have a viable alternate plan to the one that’s been in operation for millennia.

Regards,
MG

You are not following me. I didn't say make everyone do the right thing like Satan. Is it possible to make the right choices 2 times in a row? How about 3? How about 4? If we have a multiverse do you think out of the infinite you's that you could live your entire life making all the right choices?

I think I am following you very well. You are proposing something that is an impossibility. And the multiverse theory is a BIG if. I’m not even going there. That takes a LOT more faith than simply believing in a creator God that has created a world in which we have the opportunity to choose good over evil. It somewhat amazes me that this would be such a hard concept to fathom/accept.

People have their reasons for everything I guess.

Regards,
MG