Like I have previously observed, Tobin has extraordinarily poor reasoning skills, and he is a zealot. He still keeps talking about my spouting "nonsense," as if I actually believe Joseph Smith's frontier tall tales cum space opera.
Of course Mormonism's ham-fisted theodicy to explain why it's okay that a theistic God lets little kids die is nonsense. And Tobin's attempted
Divine Comedy/Buddhist/Mormon crossover is even worse.
Tobin wrote:Ah, I see more deceit is going on by certain individuals.
http://www.LDS.org/plan/we-lived-with-godBefore we were born, we lived with God in heaven as spirits. All of our spirit brothers and sisters were there, too—everyone who has lived or will live on earth including Jesus Christ....
Our spirits came from the CK. Of course spirits live there.
No, we did not come from the Celestial Kingdom in LDS mythos. In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom does not mean "wherever God physically is." The Celestial Kingdom is the end state of the righteous after the final judgment. The pre-mortal existence is not the Celestial Kingdom. The plan of salvation is a linear progression; the pre-mortal existence is the start, the Celestial Kingdom is the possible end.
Missionary Preparation Student ManualKnowing where we came from and why we are here in this mortal life helps us understand that we are living in a three-stage journey. The first stage was our premortal life, the second is mortality, and the third is our postmortal life. Mortality prepares the faithful to return to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father.http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD
Basic Doctrines: Plan of SalvationIn the premortal existence, Heavenly Father intro- duced a plan to enable us to become like Him and obtain immortality and eternal life (see D&C 14:7; Moses 1:39). The scriptures refer to this plan as the plan of salvation, the great plan of happiness, the plan of redemption, and the plan of mercy.........
The Final Judgment will occur after the Resurrection. Jesus Christ will judge each person to determine the eternal glory he or she will receive. This judgment will be based on each person's obedience to God's commands (see Revelation 20:12-13). There are three kingdoms of glory (see 1 Corinthians 15:40-42). The highest of the three kingdoms is the celestial kingdom. Those who are valiant in the testimony of Jesus and obedient to the principles of the gospel will dwell in the presence of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.Now, there is a reason we (you and I) go to another place instead of directly back to God:
Moses 6:57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.
But the deceitful critics would pretend the unaccountable have sinned and must therefore go to the spirit world and can not return to their Father in Heaven as the prophet taught instead:
D&C 137:10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
Interesting, it doesn't say they are saved in the spirit world?!?
No one is saved in the spirit world, according to Mormon mythos. Everyone goes to the spirit world until they get resurrected. There is a place for good people and a place for bad people in the spirit world.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 310Hades, the Greek, or Sheol, the Hebrew, these two significations mean a world of spirits. Hades, Sheol, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one: it is a world of spirits. The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection. "I do not think so," says one. If you will go to my house any time, I will take my lexicon and prove it to you.Quentin L. Cook, April 2009 General ConferenceAt death, righteous spirits live in a temporary state called paradise. Alma the Younger teaches us “paradise [is] a state of rest, a state of peace, where [the righteous] shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.” The unrighteous spirits dwell in spirit prison, sometimes referred to as hell. It is described as an awful place, a dark place where those fearful of the “indignation of the wrath of God” shall remain until the resurrection.The LDS Church teaches that the spirits of children who die before the age of accountability go to the spirit world until the resurrection.
“Chapter 8: Understanding Death and Resurrection,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, 77Children are innocent before the Lord; as to their death and the cause thereof, that is in the hands of God, and we should not complain of the Lord or his dispensations any more than Job did. … There is this consolation connected with the matter—they are innocent, they are not in transgression. They have paid the law of death which God passed on Adam and all his posterity; but when their spirits left their bodies and got into the spirit world their trouble and affliction were over. … They will come forth out of their graves in the morning of the resurrection, … clothed with glory, immortality and eternal life, in eternal beauty and bloom, and they will be given into the hands of their parents, and they will receive them in the family organization of the celestial world, and their parents will have them for ever. They will live as long as their God lives. This, to Latter-day Saints, who believe in the resurrection, should be a source of comfort and consolation.The Spirit World, Our Next HomeApparently, there are no infants or children in the spirit world. All who reside there possess the stature of adult men and women, the same appearance they possessed prior to mortal birth. If infants or children die, their spirits immediately resume their former adult stature while in the spirit world. However, when they regain their bodies during the resurrection, they naturally come forth as children to be raised to maturity by righteous and worthy parents. President Joseph F. Smith explained this concept:
“The spirits of our children are immortal before they come to us, and their spirits, after bodily death, are like they were before they came. They are as they would have appeared if they had lived in the flesh, to grow to maturity, or to develop their physical bodies to the full stature of their spirits. If you see one of your children that has passed away it may appear to you in the form in which you would recognize it, the form of childhood; but if it came to you as a messenger bearing some important truth, it would perhaps come as the spirit of Bishop Edward Hunter’s son (who died when a little child) came to him, in the stature of full-grown manhood, and revealed himself to his father, and said: ‘I am your son.’
“Bishop Hunter did not understand it. He went to my father and said: ‘Hyrum, what does that mean? I buried my son when he was only a little boy, but he has come to me as a full-grown man—a noble, glorious, young man, and declared himself my son. What does it mean?’
“Father (Hyrum Smith, the Patriarch) told him that the Spirit of Jesus Christ was full-grown before he was born into the world; and so our children were full-grown and possessed their full stature in the spirit, before they entered mortality, the same stature that they will possess after they have passed away from mortality, and as they will also appear after the resurrection, when they shall have completed their mission.” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., Deseret Book Company, 1939, p. 455.)And finally Christ himself taught that in order to be saved we also need to become as a little child too.
3 Nephi 11:37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
That has nothing to do with LDS eschatology regarding children who die before they are old enough to be baptized.
Anyway, Tobin was saying something about pretending to understand a thing about Mormonism.........