Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_jo1952]

I wonder why it is those who have a milk understanding are the only ones referring to church teachings on the subject to those who claim to have a more meaty understanding.

Themis,

If you really want to know the answer to your question, you need to pray for that understanding through the guidance of the Holy Spirit when studying Scripture. Seek earnestly, sincerely, with meekness, and with an open mind and a contrite spirit. Then be patient and be still. It is not going to happen all at once. God already knows you and loves you; you need to come to Him with the faith that He will answer you. This is a test for you, Themis. He knows what is in your heart; thus, He will know if you are truly sincere in seeking Him. He will also know if you are not sincerely seeking Him. It is up to you. This is between you and God; not between you and the posters, or anybody else.

Blessings,

jo

[_Darth J]

Like I have previously observed, Tobin has extraordinarily poor reasoning skills, and he is a zealot. He still keeps talking about my spouting "nonsense," as if I actually believe Joseph Smith's frontier tall tales cum space opera. Of course Mormonism's ham-fisted theodicy to explain why it's okay that a theistic God lets little kids die is nonsense. And Tobin's attempted Divine Comedy/Buddhist/Mormon crossover is even worse.

Ah, I see more deceit is going on by certain individuals.
http://www.LDS.org/plan/we-lived-with-god

Before we were born, we lived with God in heaven as spirits. All of our spirit brothers and sisters were there, too—everyone who has lived or will live on earth including Jesus Christ....

Our spirits came from the CK. Of course spirits live there.

No, we did not come from the Celestial Kingdom in LDS mythos. In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom does not mean "wherever God physically is." The Celestial Kingdom is the end state of the righteous after the final judgment. The pre-mortal existence is not the Celestial Kingdom. The plan of salvation is a linear progression; the pre-mortal existence is the start, the Celestial Kingdom is the possible end.

Missionary Preparation Student Manual

Knowing where we came from and why we are here in this mortal life helps us understand that we are living in a three-stage journey. The first stage was our premortal life, the second is mortality, and the third is our postmortal life. Mortality prepares the faithful to return to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father.

http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD



Basic Doctrines: Plan of Salvation

In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father intro- duced a plan to enable us to become like Him and obtain immortality and eternal life (see D&C 14:7; Moses 1:39). The scriptures refer to this plan as the plan of salvation, the great plan of happiness, the plan of redemption, and the plan of mercy.........

The Final Judgment will occur after the Resurrection. Jesus Christ will judge each person to determine the eternal glory he or she will receive. This judgment will be based on each person's obedience to God's commands (see Revelation 20:12-13). There are three kingdoms of glory (see 1 Corinthians 15:40-42). The highest of the three kingdoms is the celestial kingdom. Those who are valiant in the testimony of Jesus and obedient to the principles of the gospel will dwell in the presence of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Now, there is a reason we (you and I) go to another place instead of directly back to God:
Moses 6:57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

But the deceitful critics would pretend the unaccountable have sinned and must therefore go to the spirit world and can not return to their Father in Heaven as the prophet taught instead:

D&C 137:10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Interesting, it doesn't say they are saved in the spirit world?!?

No one is saved in the spirit world, according to Mormon mythos. Everyone goes to the spirit world until they get resurrected. There is a place for good people and a place for bad people in the spirit world.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 310

Hades, the Greek, or Sheol, the Hebrew, these two significations mean a world of spirits. Hades, Sheol, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one: it is a world of spirits. The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection. "I do not think so," says one. If you will go to my house any time, I will take my lexicon and prove it to you.

Quentin L. Cook, April 2009 General Conference

At death, righteous spirits live in a temporary state called paradise. Alma the Younger teaches us “paradise [is] a state of rest, a state of peace, where [the righteous] shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.” The unrighteous spirits dwell in spirit prison, sometimes referred to as hell. It is described as an awful place, a dark place where those fearful of the “indignation of the wrath of God” shall remain until the resurrection.

The LDS Church teaches that the spirits of children who die before the age of accountability go to the spirit world until the resurrection.

“Chapter 8: Understanding Death and Resurrection,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, 77

Children are innocent before the Lord; as to their death and the cause thereof, that is in the hands of God, and we should not complain of the Lord or his dispensations any more than Job did. … There is this consolation connected with the matter—they are innocent, they are not in transgression. They have paid the law of death which God passed on Adam and all his posterity; but when their spirits left their bodies and got into the spirit world their trouble and affliction were over. … They will come forth out of their graves in the morning of the resurrection, … clothed with glory, immortality and eternal life, in eternal beauty and bloom, and they will be given into the hands of their parents, and they will receive them in the family organization of the celestial world, and their parents will have them for ever. They will live as long as their God lives. This, to Latter-day Saints, who believe in the resurrection, should be a source of comfort and consolation.

The Spirit World, Our Next Home

Apparently, there are no infants or children in the spirit world. All who reside there possess the stature of adult men and women, the same appearance they possessed prior to mortal birth. If infants or children die, their spirits immediately resume their former adult stature while in the spirit world. However, when they regain their bodies during the resurrection, they naturally come forth as children to be raised to maturity by righteous and worthy parents. President Joseph F. Smith explained this concept:

“The spirits of our children are immortal before they come to us, and their spirits, after bodily death, are like they were before they came. They are as they would have appeared if they had lived in the flesh, to grow to maturity, or to develop their physical bodies to the full stature of their spirits. If you see one of your children that has passed away it may appear to you in the form in which you would recognize it, the form of childhood; but if it came to you as a messenger bearing some important truth, it would perhaps come as the spirit of Bishop Edward Hunter’s son (who died when a little child) came to him, in the stature of full-grown manhood, and revealed himself to his father, and said: ‘I am your son.’

“Bishop Hunter did not understand it. He went to my father and said: ‘Hyrum, what does that mean? I buried my son when he was only a little boy, but he has come to me as a full-grown man—a noble, glorious, young man, and declared himself my son. What does it mean?’

“Father (Hyrum Smith, the Patriarch) told him that the Spirit of Jesus Christ was full-grown before he was born into the world; and so our children were full-grown and possessed their full stature in the spirit, before they entered mortality, the same stature that they will possess after they have passed away from mortality, and as they will also appear after the resurrection, when they shall have completed their mission.” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., Deseret Book Company, 1939, p. 455.)

And finally Christ himself taught that in order to be saved we also need to become as a little child too.

3 Nephi 11:37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

That has nothing to do with LDS eschatology regarding children who die before they are old enough to be baptized.

Anyway, Tobin was saying something about pretending to understand a thing about Mormonism.........

[_Darth J]

Darth J isn't educating me on a single thing. He's spouting his normal non-sense. Of course where God dwells is the Celestial Kingdom and his idea that it isn't is just absurd.

Hi Tobin,

It saddens me to see how many people who claim to understand the teachings of the Church, really do not. At best, they appear to have only a milk understanding. If they continue to seek for Truth, they will receive it and be able to reconcile all things which may currently appear to be conflicting. At that time they will no longer call or treat us as fools.

Continue your efforts to share Truth; there is no shame in serving Christ.

Blessings,

jo

You haven't read a single one of the statements from the Journal of Discourses or other sources in that blog comment you copied and pasted. The Orson Pratt quote mine alone demonstrates that.

The Heber C. Kimball quote likewise has nothing to do with reincarnation---not even implicitly. The "probations" he was talking about are the stages of existence, not recurrent lives. In that talk, he said that there will be a lot of work to be done in heaven. Mortal life and life in heaven are the "probations" he was referring to, not additional mortal lives that are the result of reincarnation.

http://jod.mrm.org/4/328

Many suppose that when they get to heaven they can sit down upon flowery beds of ease and have nothing to do. I never expect that day. It is just so with a great many, when they come here, they suppose that everything is going to be prepared for them; they suppose that they will sit down in ease, and eat, and drink, and wear, and that there will be no person to trouble them. We have come here to become inured to work—to build temples, and improve upon the elements that God has placed around us, that we may become more skillful tomorrow, through the experience of today. What I do not today, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. But suppose that I do not improve my time today, I wake up tomorrow and find myself in the rear; and then, if I do not improve upon that day, and again lay down to sleep, on awaking, I find myself still in the rear. This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. They are days' labors, and it is for us to be faithful today, tomorrow, and everyday.

So this is how we apparently get to "meat" understanding of the Church's teachings:

1. Read quote mines that someone else has cobbled together.
2. Buy that someone's faulty inductive reasoning that is based on his/her quote mining.
3. Don't bother reading the statements that LDS leaders were purported to have said in order to see the actual context.
4. If you feel good about the out-of-context statements that you have already decided mean whatever the someone in part 1 and part 2 say they must mean, then God must be confirming the truth of things that people did not actually say or intend.

[_Tobin]

No, we did not come from the Celestial Kingdom in LDS mythos. In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom does not mean "wherever God physically is." The Celestial Kingdom is the end state of the righteous after the final judgment. The pre-mortal existence is not the Celestial Kingdom. The plan of salvation is a linear progression; the pre-mortal existence is the start, the Celestial Kingdom is the possible end.

Thank you Darth J for the laughs, but the more you repeat the same non-sense, the funnier and dumber you look. The pre-mortal existence occured in the Celestial Kingdom. Where do you think the pre-mortal world was? This is Primary level stuff. Funny you never knew that. Poor guy.

[_Drifting]

No, we did not come from the Celestial Kingdom in LDS mythos. In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom does not mean "wherever God physically is." The Celestial Kingdom is the end state of the righteous after the final judgment. The pre-mortal existence is not the Celestial Kingdom. The plan of salvation is a linear progression; the pre-mortal existence is the start, the Celestial Kingdom is the possible end.

Thank you Darth J for the laughs, but the more you repeat the same non-sense, the funnier and dumber you look. The pre-mortal existence occured in the Celestial Kingdom. Where do you think the pre-mortal world was? This is Primary level stuff. Funny you never knew that. Poor guy.

 

14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.
 15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
 16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
 17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
 18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
 19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
 20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

Now, I was always taught that the Celestial Kingdom would be the earth when it was graced with the presence of God (see above scripture from the D&C).

So Tobin, by your reckoning we left our pre mortal life on earth to come to earth...hmmm...So, where did all those spirits go who weren't yet timed to come down to earth from...as you put it...earth?

Celestial Kingdom
see Celestial Glory; Earth, Destiny of; Earth, Purpose of; Eternal Life; Exaltation; Glory; Heaven.
(Topical Guide Heading)

[_Tobin]

...

LOL Where do you think God exists? This world is destined to be part of the Celestial Kingdom eventually, but God is in the Celestial Kingdom now. The plan of salvation is so we can return to be with God. Where is God? The Celestial Kingdom. I really think all of this is sooo basic and terribly funny that you guys don't know this stuff. As I've said, some people on here have a dim understanding of Mormonism.

[_Drifting]

...

LOL Where do you think God exists? This world is destined to be part of the Celestial Kingdom eventually, but God is in the Celestial Kingdom now. The plan of salvation is so we can return to be with God. Where is God? The Celestial Kingdom. I really think all of this is sooo basic and terribly funny that you guys don't know this stuff. As I've said, some people on here have a dim understanding of Mormonism.

Got it.
So if God is in the Celestial Kingdom (earth) now, who the chuff is looking after Kolob?
And where are were those spirits still waiting for a body evicted to?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Tobin's enlightened view of how 60,000,000+ billion spirits could fit into a planet shared by God and his trillions of resurrected beings, angles, buildings, and networks used for infrastructure:



- VRDRC

[_Themis]

I wonder why it is those who have a milk understanding are the only ones referring to church teachings on the subject to those who claim to have a more meaty understanding.

Themis,

If you really want to know the answer to your question, you need to pray for that understanding through the guidance of the Holy Spirit when studying Scripture. Seek earnestly, sincerely, with meekness, and with an open mind and a contrite spirit. Then be patient and be still. It is not going to happen all at once. God already knows you and loves you; you need to come to Him with the faith that He will answer you. This is a test for you, Themis. He knows what is in your heart; thus, He will know if you are truly sincere in seeking Him. He will also know if you are not sincerely seeking Him. It is up to you. This is between you and God; not between you and the posters, or anybody else.

Blessings,

jo

So you saying if I ask God that he will tell me that you have it right and those who can actually quote what the church teaches have it wrong? Don't forget that in many areas of religion you and Tobin would disagree.

[_Tobin]

So you saying if I ask God that he will tell me that you have it right and those who can actually quote what the church teaches have it wrong? Don't forget that in many areas of religion you and Tobin would disagree.

LOL Themis, jo and I disagree on parts of this topic too. Being a conscientious member of the Church doesn't mean we'll agree on everything, but we both agree there is a God, God loves all of us, and wants us all to seek him, do as he asks, and follow him.