Shulem to a wider audience

[Shulem]

MG2.0
And believe it or not it’s a big deal. You’re stuck with ‘magic’ now to explain the mechanics of Book of Mormon translation.

Magic is all we need to know, all the rest is mere apologetic nonsense.

MG is a gift to this board because he gets me thinking. Why should we even think or assume that the rock was in the hat? For all we know it was hardly if ever in the hat. It was all a ploy! Sleight of hand, baby. See here.

[Moksha]

Did the Church urge its members not to watch Breaking the Magician's Code: Magic's Biggest Secrets Finally Revealed?

Radio Free Mormon: 161: Magic and the Book of Mormon
RFM brings to bear his training as a magician on the translation process of the Book of Mormon. Suddenly, lots of pieces start falling into place! Was this just a magic trick? And has Joseph Smith been fooling people all along even down to the present day? This one is a must-listen!

https://radiofreemormon.org/2020/05/rad ... of-Mormon/

RFM and Bill Reel also covered this in a later episode of Mormonism Live, but I do not know the episode.

[MG 2.0]

MG2.0
And believe it or not it’s a big deal. You’re stuck with ‘magic’ now to explain the mechanics of Book of Mormon translation.

Magic is all we need to know, all the rest is mere apologetic nonsense.

Me thinks you are stuck into a position that you cannot wiggle out of.

The ‘magic’ RFM proposes in his podcast is not analogous to the translation process of the Book of Mormon and the witness accounts. I think that RFM may know this in his heart of hearts.

The fact is, he (and you) are not REALLY able to come up with a translation process that fits what actually occurred. Going the ‘magic hat’ route seems even more foolhardy than a magic rock. But what choice do you really have?

Unless there was something to that magic rock. But then that brings in the possibility of having to look at the supernatural/metaphysical.

Can’t have that.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Magic is all we need to know, all the rest is mere apologetic nonsense.

MG is a gift to this board because he gets me thinking. Why should we even think or assume that the rock was in the hat? For all we know it was hardly if ever in the hat. It was all a ploy! Sleight of hand, baby. See here.

Man, you’re really changing things up. It will be interesting to see if you can sway the audience as easily as you did with Delmarva.

No seerstone. Any takers?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

There have been some great conversation in some threads on this board about how Smith performed certain hat tricks and was able to fool his scribes (including his wife) by employing simply magician tricks in which Smith was quite good at.

RFM has a pair of great podcast that examine Smith's technique. Click and listen:

Magic and the Book of Mormon
Magic and the Book of Mormon Part 2

So the ‘gimmick’ was the seerstone. No one else could look at it while it was a ‘prop’ in the hat. RFM states that he isn’t really interested in describing HOW the prop was used in this instance.

I don’t blame him.

Maybe RFM can describe, here for our amusement, how the seerstone, used as a prop, was then the means for Joseph’s dictation process. We’ve already agreed that Joseph couldn’t have dictated the text of the Book of Mormon day after day without referring to notes or having some kind of a flowchart, etc.

Which, we know, there is no evidence of him having used.

So, RFM (Real Fine Magician), how was this prop the MEANS to Joseph hoodwinking everyone during the translation process? What was the ‘magic’?

Regards,
MG

A little help, RFM?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I’m convinced no sane god would communicate the most important ideas in human history to a charlatan through a rock placed in a hat.


It’s prima facie absurd.

Yes, if Joseph Smith was a charlatan then what you say is true. And there have been plenty of charlatans.

Back in the early 19th century how would you suggest God should have straightened out the Christian world with the hope of getting everyone on the same page, etc.?

And if those ideas included correct doctrines and practices that are “the most important ideas in human history” what would you suggest might have been a step by step plan He should/could have gone with?

After all is said and done things turned out pretty well for the restoration, that is if you think temples, authority, correct understanding of God and what He requires (commandments, ordinances, repentance, etc.), have any bearing on human progression.

There are plenty of armchair critics that have their opinions on how it shouldn’t have been done.

My question is the opposite of that.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I'm explaining Smith's method and modus operandi in fooling his scribes.

Man, they were stupid and sheesh, he was smart.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

How you listened to over 2 hours of podcast in just over an hour is beyond me.

Everyone here has pretty much agreed that Smith used notes and was able to read them in the hat. We have had quite a few conversations about this in discussing the white hat and how easy it would be by slight of hand to maintain crib notes to aid with certain parts of the story. A good magician could have pulled that off really easy. And when you pull it off and fool everyone there is no evidence to show you did it! It was done by magic. Oliver was fooled as was everyone else. Smith was really good at what he did. The hat and the stone working together was a perfect combination with the idea he was channeling God through a spiritual medium which only he could access.

OK. So the stone/spectacles are merely a diversion.

It’s the hat!

If we were to look closely at the bottom of the white hat we would see a false bottom that the ‘cheat sheet’ would be hidden under. The rock/spectacles are sitting on top of that thin translucent material. Wouldn’t the rock/spectacles inhibit the clear reading off of the paper? Would the egg shaped stone not roll around? Would the weight of the stone disengage the false bottom? What if the paper shifts? What about actually being able to clearly see the print on the paper through the material and/or through the spectacles? Were breaks taken EVERY time Joseph got to the end of the cheat sheet? How did he ALWAYS, without fail, slip in the new cheat sheet without being found out?

So many questions. So few answers. Except for a LOT of conjecture and what seems to be unreasonable assumptions.

Yes, I listened to the first podcast thus far. RFM does a great job explaining how magicians do card tricks, etc. He fails in explaining the Book of Mormon translation process except to say, “It’s magic!”…but folks, I’m really not sure how Joseph did it.

Regards,
MG

Need some more help here also, RFM.

Regards,
MG

[doubtingthomas]

Yes, I listened to the first podcast thus far. RFM does a great job explaining how magicians do card tricks, etc. He fails in explaining the Book of Mormon translation process except to say, “It’s magic!”…but folks, I’m really not sure how Joseph did it.

"The Guinness Book of World Records reports that in 1981 Rajan Srinavasen Mahadevan (known as Rajan) recited the first 31,811 digits of pi from memory and that in 1987 Hideaki Tomoyori broke that record by reciting the first 40,000 digits."
https://www.encyclopedia.com/psychology ... mnemonists

Smith didn't need to use magic, he only needed god.

[drumdude]

I’m convinced no sane god would communicate the most important ideas in human history to a charlatan through a rock placed in a hat.


It’s prima facie absurd.

Yes, if Joseph Smith was a charlatan then what you say is true. And there have been plenty of charlatans.

Back in the early 19th century how would you suggest God should have straightened out the Christian world with the hope of getting everyone on the same page, etc.?

And if those ideas included correct doctrines and practices that are “the most important ideas in human history” what would you suggest might have been a step by step plan He should/could have gone with?

After all is said and done things turned out pretty well for the restoration, that is if you think temples, authority, correct understanding of God and what He requires (commandments, ordinances, repentance, etc.), have any bearing on human progression.

There are plenty of armchair critics that have their opinions on how it shouldn’t have been done.

My question is the opposite of that.

Regards,
MG

I’d have to really work to think of something more ridiculous than rock in a hat.

If Joseph Smith said a talking cat told him the Book of Mormon, you would be defending that idiocy too.