Shulem to a wider audience

[MG 2.0]

Shulem, I think you’ve reinforced an important point. Joseph couldn’t have dictated the Book of Mormon without help of some kind. The problem we encounter is that there are no references or any evidences leading one to think Joseph was keeping track of what he was doing. He would simply pick up from where he had left off in the dictation without any reminders of where he had left off. No notes. No record of any flowchart or anything like unto it.

There have been some great conversation in some threads on this board about how Smith performed certain hat tricks and was able to fool his scribes (including his wife) by employing simply magician tricks in which Smith was quite good at.

RFM has a pair of great podcast that examine Smith's technique. Click and listen:

Magic and the Book of Mormon
Magic and the Book of Mormon Part 2

So the ‘gimmick’ was the seerstone. No one else could look at it while it was a ‘prop’ in the hat. RFM states that he isn’t really interested in describing HOW the prop was used in this instance.

I don’t blame him.

Maybe RFM can describe, here for our amusement, how the seerstone, used as a prop, was then the means for Joseph’s dictation process. We’ve already agreed that Joseph couldn’t have dictated the text of the Book of Mormon day after day without referring to notes or having some kind of a flowchart, etc.

Which, we know, there is no evidence of him having used.

So, RFM (Real Fine Magician), how was this prop the MEANS to Joseph hoodwinking everyone during the translation process? What was the ‘magic’?

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

Maybe RFM can describe, here for our amusement, how the seerstone, used as a prop, was then the means for Joseph’s dictation process. We’ve already agreed that Joseph couldn’t have dictated the text of the Book of Mormon day after day without referring to notes or having some kind of a flowchart, etc.

Which, we know, there is no evidence of him having used.

So, RFM (Real Fine Magician), how was this prop the MEANS to Joseph hoodwinking everyone during the translation process? What was the ‘magic’?

How you listened to over 2 hours of podcast in just over an hour is beyond me.

Everyone here has pretty much agreed that Smith used notes and was able to read them in the hat. We have had quite a few conversations about this in discussing the white hat and how easy it would be by slight of hand to maintain crib notes to aid with certain parts of the story. A good magician could have pulled that off really easy. And when you pull it off and fool everyone there is no evidence to show you did it! It was done by magic. Oliver was fooled as was everyone else. Smith was really good at what he did. The hat and the stone working together was a perfect combination with the idea he was channeling God through a spiritual medium which only he could access.

[MG 2.0]

Maybe RFM can describe, here for our amusement, how the seerstone, used as a prop, was then the means for Joseph’s dictation process. We’ve already agreed that Joseph couldn’t have dictated the text of the Book of Mormon day after day without referring to notes or having some kind of a flowchart, etc.

Which, we know, there is no evidence of him having used.

So, RFM (Real Fine Magician), how was this prop the MEANS to Joseph hoodwinking everyone during the translation process? What was the ‘magic’?

How you listened to over 2 hours of podcast in just over an hour is beyond me.

Everyone here has pretty much agreed that Smith used notes and was able to read them in the hat. We have had quite a few conversations about this in discussing the white hat and how easy it would be by slight of hand to maintain crib notes to aid with certain parts of the story. A good magician could have pulled that off really easy. And when you pull it off and fool everyone there is no evidence to show you did it! It was done by magic. Oliver was fooled as was everyone else. Smith was really good at what he did. The hat and the stone working together was a perfect combination with the idea he was channeling God through a spiritual medium which only he could access.

OK. So the stone/spectacles are merely a diversion.

It’s the hat!

If we were to look closely at the bottom of the white hat we would see a false bottom that the ‘cheat sheet’ would be hidden under. The rock/spectacles are sitting on top of that thin translucent material. Wouldn’t the rock/spectacles inhibit the clear reading off of the paper? Would the egg shaped stone not roll around? Would the weight of the stone disengage the false bottom? What if the paper shifts? What about actually being able to clearly see the print on the paper through the material and/or through the spectacles? Were breaks taken EVERY time Joseph got to the end of the cheat sheet? How did he ALWAYS, without fail, slip in the new cheat sheet without being found out?

So many questions. So few answers. Except for a LOT of conjecture and what seems to be unreasonable assumptions.

Yes, I listened to the first podcast thus far. RFM does a great job explaining how magicians do card tricks, etc. He fails in explaining the Book of Mormon translation process except to say, “It’s magic!”…but folks, I’m really not sure how Joseph did it.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

OK. So the stone/spectacles are merely a diversion.

A magician needs to have a diversion to keep their audience from zeroing in on the trick.

It’s the hat!

Yes, the hat was definitely at play. With all the focus and talk of the stone, the hat just fades into the background as part of the act.

If we were to look closely at the bottom of the white hat we would see a false bottom that the ‘cheat sheet’ would be hidden under.

It's plausible that there was a kind of false bottom or a means to penetrate the hat in which to slide notes. Magicians use all kinds of props. A hat can be more than just a hat.

The rock/spectacles are sitting on top of that thin translucent material.

Only Joseph knew how much of the hat was thick and how much was thin. Only Joseph knew the secrets of his hat trick. He's the magician.

Wouldn’t the rock/spectacles inhibit the clear reading off of the paper?

I can't say. I don't have the hat and I didn't perform the trick. But if I could examine that hat then I would be able to answer your question.

Would the egg shaped stone not roll around?

Not if the hat was firmly resting on a solid surface such as a table. I tend to think that it was in the best possible position in which he could rest his face over it as comfortable as possible without straining his neck.

Would the weight of the stone disengage the false bottom?

Every good magician knows how to work his prop and design it to function in a manner to perform the trick.

What if the paper shifts?

Any good magician worth his salt knows how to use sleight of hand in order to achieve their objectives. A good magician knows how to properly manage their props.

What about actually being able to clearly see the print on the paper through the material and/or through the spectacles?

The magician provides a way to see what he needs to see, where he needs to see it, and when he needs to see it. Where there is a will there is a way!

Were breaks taken EVERY time Joseph got to the end of the cheat sheet? How did he ALWAYS, without fail, slip in the new cheat sheet without being found out?

The base of the Book of Mormon was pure storytelling. Smith relied on markers and certain information to meld segments of his stories together and used cheat sheets for that purpose. I don't think the cheat sheets contained massive amounts of information but simple notes to keep track of things. A note can be replaced very easily by sleight of hand and using a diversion or simply when the scribe isn't looking.

So many questions. So few answers.

I've answered every single one of your questions which is more than you'll ever do for me.

Except for a LOT of conjecture and what seems to be unreasonable assumptions.

Intelligent reasoning coupled with concentration can prove very effective. What seems unreasonable to believers may seem very reasonable to unbelievers. It's very difficult to convince those who have a testimony that their Church isn't what it's cracked up to be.

[drumdude]

I’m convinced no sane god would communicate the most important ideas in human history to a charlatan through a rock placed in a hat.


It’s prima facie absurd.

[Philo Sofee]

I’m convinced no sane god would communicate the most important ideas in human history to a charlatan through a rock placed in a hat.


It’s prima facie absurd.

THAT is a sig line!!!

[MG 2.0]

What seems unreasonable to believers may seem very reasonable to unbelievers.

You’ve just demonstrated that. Your evasiveness and misdirection was ALMOST magical.

The hat was at the root of the so called deception. That’s just plain genius.

If it’s not the rock, it’s the hat!

You guys are caught between a rock and a hard place on this. Pun intended.

And believe it or not it’s a big deal. You’re stuck with ‘magic’ now to explain the mechanics of Book of Mormon translation.

Regards,
MG

[LittleNipper]

My own take is

1) GOD would not have inspired the last book of the Bible to end the way it did if there was more to the story.
2) GOD would not have trusted one human to translate a supposed historic Book of Mormon but would have incorporated one for each book at the very least.
3) GOD would not have trusted one human to run HIS CHURCH.
4) GOD never buried scripture before, why would HE hide a Book of Mormon from all other Christians for centuries.
5) The Bible is all about JESUS the CHRIST and HIS generations: Why HE came, HIS linage, the prophecies surrounding HIS arrival, what HE planned to do, HIS triumph over SIN, and HIS future RETURN. The Book of Mormon doesn't fit this mold.
6) Why would GOD inspire prophecy that HELL would not ruin HIS CHURCH and then declare it apostate?
7) Why was Joseph Smith so impressed by a Methodist minister?
8) Why did Joseph Smith even read the Bible? Wasn't it the apostate CHURCH which brought HIM to seek after GOD?
9) Do Mormons in general really care or do they figure that they are somehow protected no matter if their doctrines are true or false?

[Shulem]

You’ve just demonstrated that. Your evasiveness and misdirection was ALMOST magical.

I don't think people find me evasive. I'm almost always very direct and often quite succinct in what I say. I'm not trying to trick you or pull wool over your eyes. I've giving you my perspective as a nonbeliever which I know transcends that which I assumed as a believer. I know better now.

The hat was at the root of the so called deception. That’s just plain genius.

No, that's not it. The "root" was Joseph Smith's inner motivations and desires to use deception to get one over on others. The hat was a prop used to perform the trick. It was all rather ingenious on Smith's part.

If it’s not the rock, it’s the hat!

It was a combination of the hat with the rock that made it so effective while all along pretending to channel God in revealing the contents of a lost book.

You guys are caught between a rock and a hard place on this. Pun intended.

You guys? You mean 8 billion people? Very, very, few people on God's green planet are going to fall for Smith's trick.

And believe it or not it’s a big deal. You’re stuck with ‘magic’ now to explain the mechanics of Book of Mormon translation.

It's not that I'm stuck with anything. I'm explaining Smith's method and modus operandi in fooling his scribes.

[Philo Sofee]

MG2.0
And believe it or not it’s a big deal. You’re stuck with ‘magic’ now to explain the mechanics of Book of Mormon translation.

Magic is all we need to know, all the rest is mere apologetic nonsense.