Interpreter starts a “new” podcast

[Gadianton]

I think you're totally right about that, Drumdude. Mormons in general think that Mormonism is the same thing as science, and Alma 32 strongly plays into that. I can't count the number of times well-meaning ward members would say things like, truth is truth, we test the scriptures just like we do tests in the science lab.

A good example of someone who believes Mormonism is "science" and indisputably proven by apologetics is Dan Peterson. You may be thinking that Dan has not taken such an extreme position but I wager he has. On the one hand, he has said the Mopologists, like Gregor Mendel, have been ignored, and if they are given a proper hearing, then theories such as the LGT will take their rightful place among the most robust scientific theories out there, including gravity and heliocentrism. On the other hand, he claims that scientific discoveries are made all the time, that scientist are frequently wrong, and science isn't nearly as trustworthy as critics of religion think. What he's doing is inflating Mopologetics and deflating science such that the two eventually meet in the middle and share even ground.

Don't believe me? Ask him if any scientific fact anywhere is better established than the antiquity of the Book of Mormon. (if you take the Mopologists stats papers seriously like he does, then no theory on earth is established as firmly as the antiquity of the Book of Mormon)

[Physics Guy]

Mormonism is very much steeped in modern scientific post-enlightenment culture. Joseph was claiming to actually translate the ancient texts, methodically as a real translation. He set up schools to foster learning other languages. He said God was a material man of flesh and blood. God lives on a physical planet. Mormons today still testify that they “know” the church is true.

It’s a very distinct departure from how I understand Catholicism. Catholics are okay believing in a non-material God and heaven. They are okay with mysteries that are beyond our comprehension. They are okay believing instead of knowing.

For what it's worth, this is my reaction as well. Naturally enough, people in 1830's New England thought that new insights were bosses just like the old boss, except somehow better: the same kind of religious authority, but stronger somehow. As a way to rationalise a new authority, in a time when authority meant old tradition, Restoration was obvious. So Mormonism naturally thought of itself as a form of modernity, at the same time as trying to pretend that it was the most ancient thing. In fact it was neither new nor ancient, but very much a thing of its time. As a phenomenon, this makes Mormonism interesting, a new religious movement that emerged at the change of an age. If Mormonism doesn't actually meet the test to be acknowledged as a new work of God, though, then this makes Mormonism an intrinsically obsolete thing, discarding the wisdom of ages without comprehending new wisdom.

Personally I prefer the latter view of religion. It’s a lot more mature, being 2000 years old versus 200.

A fraction of the younger generation of my family has converted to Catholicism, in an enthusiastically hard-core form. One nephew has just entered seminary—and he's one of the smartest people I know. I'm weirded out by this, but not by nearly as much as if these kids had converted to Mormonism.

[Gadianton]

So Mormonism naturally thought of itself as a form of modernity, at the same time as trying to pretend that it was the most ancient thing. In fact it was neither new nor ancient, but very much a thing of its time

This isn't that unusual but it is true of Mormonism, taking ides popular at the time, and pretending they were revealed by ancient prophets (that they uniquely have access to). The ancientness gives it all a romantic backdrop.

As an example, my memory is a little fuzzy here but consider the movie Alien Vs. Predator of 2004. I've seen a lot of bad movies, I probably remember this one mostly because the speakers were blown (at the theater) and it was pure suffering through all that distortion. We got free tickets out of it. Anyway, the movie is a direct parallel to the Book of Mormon because a citadel is discovered in some remote place that looks like the citadels of the Book of Mormon, and it's revealed that in the beginning, mankind was enslaved by the predators. In the adventure to this exotic place with the citadel where the main guy and main girl probably got together, you've got all this cool scenery and mystery, and learning all this exotic historical stuff requires cracking the pictorial language of the citadel. So it's really romantic and mysterious. And then the plot twist comes. As they are under threat (of one or both of the foes?) just in the nick of time they discover the hieroglyphs that read, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Because without that big adventure, nobody would have ever thought of this. That revelation amid all the exotic ancientness made them realize they had to partner with the predators in order to fight of the much more powerful aliens.

All the Book of Mormon stories, Nephi breaking his bow, whatever it is, are right on par with movies like AVP.

[Limnor]

So Mormonism naturally thought of itself as a form of modernity, at the same time as trying to pretend that it was the most ancient thing. In fact it was neither new nor ancient, but very much a thing of its time

This isn't that unusual but it is true of Mormonism, taking ides popular at the time, and pretending they were revealed by ancient prophets (that they uniquely have access to). The ancientness gives it all a romantic backdrop.

It seems like modern prophets ought to reach back into that same bag whenever an internal dispute needs settling.

Limited geography or Heartland? No problem. Reveal the lost words of Mathonihah. “And the Lord showed unto me the lands of our inheritance, and behold, they were but a small portion of this great continent.” Et voila! Problem solved.

Interestingly, that seems to fit Joseph’s method. Need ancient voice from the dust to support innovative theology? Look here, the plates of Mathonihah do just that!

[Gadianton]

It seems like modern prophets ought to reach back into that same bag whenever an internal dispute needs settling.

Limited geography or Heartland? No problem. Reveal the lost words of Mathonihah. “And the Lord showed unto me the lands of our inheritance, and behold, they were but a small portion of this great continent.” Et voila! Problem solved.

Interestingly, that seems to fit Joseph’s method. Need ancient voice from the dust to support innovative theology? Look here, the plates of Mathonihah do just that!

You're right on all points. Of course it would never happen. One answer is that the leaders have moved on to be financial managers. But I think we both know even if this weren't the case, they couldn't pull it off. The members wouldn't buy it. Prophets like Moses, John the Baptist, Isaiah, and even Joseph Smith didn't become prophets because a procedure was in place that said it was there turn. Their metabolism worked 3.5% slower than their nearest peer who died first, and now they are a prophet.

Denver Snuffer can do just that with his flock, no Mormon leader would stand a chance.