DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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sock puppet
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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Objective or absolute morals? The Mormon church is founded on situational ethics. Thou shalt not kill--unless to get plates from a drunken Laban. Thou shalt not bear false witness--unless it is to keep Emma and other women in Nauvoo in the dark about your dalliances with other women, one's 'spiritual wives'. Do not speak ill of the Lord's anointed--unless they're dead, then whatever they said that is no longer expedient was just man-talk despite the window dressing given it at the time that it was doctrine, a direct commandment from the Lord.

Objective or absolute morals? That's very laughable, Daniel.
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Rivendale
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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sock puppet wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 6:52 pm
Objective or absolute morals? The Mormon church is founded on situational ethics. Thou shalt not kill--unless to get plates from a drunken Laban. Thou shalt not bear false witness--unless it is to keep Emma and other women in Nauvoo in the dark about your dalliances with other women, one's 'spiritual wives'. Do not speak ill of the Lord's anointed--unless they're dead, then whatever they said that is no longer expedient was just man-talk despite the window dressing given it at the time that it was doctrine, a direct commandment from the Lord.

Objective or absolute morals? That's very laughable, Daniel.
Thou shalt not steal--unless it is land from indigenous people to build Zion again. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's. Unless you are building eternal dynasties or fancy the Fancher's livestock.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Meadowchik »

This is bizarre venturing into childish.

A foundational morality predates and outpaces Mormonism: the Golden Rule. It is amply better and extremely sound:

Personal identity relies on "I am." The Golden Rule in it's essence says, "you are." Undermine another's being and you undermine your own.

It's that simple.

It's almost as if people have been complicating it forever just so they can say "I'm special."

They're being silly.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Philo Sofee »

sock puppet wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 6:52 pm
Objective or absolute morals? The Mormon church is founded on situational ethics. Thou shalt not kill--unless to get plates from a drunken Laban. Thou shalt not bear false witness--unless it is to keep Emma and other women in Nauvoo in the dark about your dalliances with other women, one's 'spiritual wives'. Do not speak ill of the Lord's anointed--unless they're dead, then whatever they said that is no longer expedient was just man-talk despite the window dressing given it at the time that it was doctrine, a direct commandment from the Lord.

Objective or absolute morals? That's very laughable, Daniel.
And, Thou Shalt not Lie - except when you need to cover the fact that Joseph Smith couldn't translate Egyptian papyri... and entirely gave wrong interpretations of Egyptian iconography such as the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Jason Abbott »

drumdude wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 5:47 am
DP is essentially saying, “yes our religion may be evil but if you don’t believe in our religion then you have no moral grounds for condemning it as evil.”
As some will be aware, this was a popular Reformed argument a few decades ago, sometimes called presuppositionalism. I was somewhat into it myself—read the books; debated with friends; traveled to see Greg Bahnsen speak in person.

That this idea is recycled doesn't make it wrong or right but it does mean there's already much to be found on the topic.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

It’s interesting that DCP is discussing morals. DCP is the most immoral person I know. The constant plagiarizing, lying, homophobia, personal attacks, libel, slander, anger, racism and antisemitism is truly unbelievable.

DCP discussing morals is like Hitler discussing the Golden Rule, or like Midgley discussing how to treat women. Whatever the basis is for DCP’s morals, I want nothing to do with it.

Folks, you just can’t make this stuff up.
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Rivendale
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Rivendale »

Jason Abbott wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 7:50 pm
drumdude wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 5:47 am
DP is essentially saying, “yes our religion may be evil but if you don’t believe in our religion then you have no moral grounds for condemning it as evil.”
As some will be aware, this was a popular Reformed argument a few decades ago, sometimes called presuppositionalism. I was somewhat into it myself—read the books; debated with friends; traveled to see Greg Bahnsen speak in person.

That this idea is recycled doesn't make it wrong or right but it does mean there's already much to be found on the topic.
This is where William Lane Craig butters his bread. Properly basic.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Gadianton »

Physics Guy wrote:Isn't Mormon morality derived, not from God, but from the eternal gospel principles by which the Mormon God gained exaltation?
Yes, this is what Mormons believe.

But DCP has been influenced more by Evangelicals than his own people when it comes to theology and seems to believe Mormonism is some refined version of general Evangelicalism. All his points about theism come from EV sources.

How could the two worlds possibly merge? well, he doesn't say. Won't say. You can't get him to tell you anything that's helpful. He doesn't have time to go into it because there's a plane to catch. A Blog isn't the place for the scholarly answers he has in mind. But all will make sense when he publishes his 7 volume "A reasonable leap into the light" one day.

But, he'll never write that, so I guess we'll never know.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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“DCP” wrote:To take it back to Under the Banner of Heaven and the Lafferty murders, on what Nietzschean basis can you condemn the Laffertys? On what basis, even, can you, if you’re a follower of Nietzsche, condemn alleged Latter-day Saint misogyny, patriarchy, obscurantism, and fanaticism?
You can condemn it on a Nietzschean basis by citing Mormonism's own scriptures:

Alma 42:13: Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

Alma 42:22: But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Alma 42:25: What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

So if DCP believes his own scriptures, then he already believes that moral principles exist superior to, and independent of, God Himself, since God Himself is bound by them.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Moksha »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 2:20 am
So if DCP believes his own scriptures, then he already believes that moral principles exist superior to, and independent of, God Himself, since God Himself is bound by them.
What if Dr. Peterson were to reply, "Not so, since Joseph was just making it up."?
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