Hatred for Mormons

[Chap]

I think that in the OP we are faced with a common feature of this kind of discussion.

When the poster says

I gotta ask, what's up with the hatred for Mormons? Is this forum for people to vent and talk about what's wrong with Mormonism for the most part? If it is that's fine, people need to be able to talk about their struggles, that's healthy, just asking so I know what I'm getting myself into

The word 'hate' is not being used in the usual sense that it had until some time in the last twenty years or so. Once in order to be accused of hating a given group you had to express something like "A feeling of intense dislike or aversion towards a person or thing; hatred, loathing, animosity" - with is sense 1a given to the noun 'hate' in the Oxford English Dictionary. based on a collection of historical examples of the word in use from 1175 to 2012. (Please remember that the OED does not tell its readers how words OUGHT to be used; it only records the ways they HAVE been used.)

Nazis 'hated' Jews in that sense, and members of the KKK hated black people. The expression of 'hate' in this sense is often associated with a strong wish that the group referred to should suffer major, even fatal harm, or an intention to inflict such harm on the group.

However, we nowadays increasing find that it is possible to be accused of 'hate speech' if you say or write something that does not express any intense dislike or aversion, but merely expresses disagreement with an intellectual position expressed by members of the group or by those outside the group who claim to be protecting its interests. Thus J.K. Rowling expressed disquiet at the refusal of trans rights advocates to use the term 'women' in some contexts where the behaviour of a biologically female human body was at issue, instead saying 'people who menstruate', on the grounds presumably that trans women (basically people who are born with a biologically male body but prefer to identify themselves as and to be acknowledged as being of feminine gender*) would otherwise be excluded. Rowling did not express any hatred of animosity towards trans women in the normal sense of the words, but was nevertheless widely attacked for 'hate speech'.

Similarly, if one says that the gold plates were simply part of a deception practised by Joseph Smith, and that beliefs in historical Lamanites and Nephites are untrue, one can be accused of 'hating' Mormons, ever if one is an ex-Mormon who loves many Mormon family members and friends, and has not the slightest with to see them, as a class, suffer harm.

By the same token, I deserve to be accused of 'hating' Episcopalians, since I am an ex Episcopalian who has not come to believe that the core doctrines of that faith are historically false or intellectually incoherent, or both. But do I 'hate' Episcopalians? Nope, unless you want to change the usage of the word very radically.

The old sense of the word 'hate' has served us well for centuries. I don't see the current modifications of its usage as contributing anything positive to clarity of thought and expression, and I wish people would leave the word as it was.


*Something which I think they should have the right to do in general when of an age to make such decisions, and with the doing of which it is very rare (though not competely unknown) to find associated any deleterious consequences for the trans person or for others.

[Atlanticmike]

Hello, I'm new here. I found this forum after listening to a podcast yesterday and thought I would check you guys out. I've been reading a lot of the threads on here and have really liked what I've been reading so far. I'm an active Mormon but really don't mind different points of view, most of my friends are non Mormons and a large portion of my family isn't Mormon. But, I gotta ask, what's up with the hatred for Mormons? Is this forum for people to vent and talk about what's wrong with Mormonism for the most part? If it is that's fine, people need to be able to talk about their struggles, that's healthy, just asking so I know what I'm getting myself into.

Welcome!

I don't think it's hatred. Try to understand that many of the posters in Terrestrial devoted decades of their lives from childhood through adulthood to their church. They trusted and believed what they were taught. They invested years going to 3 hour services on Sunday, Wednesday activities, they were baptized in early childhood, studied their scriptures, attended seminary early before school, they did temple work as expected, they served their 2 year mission, did visit teaching and acts of service. Many or most were sealed in the temple, some with and some without parents as witness. They raised their children in the same religious traditions and cultures that they were raised up in.

They invested their time and talents in holding church callings and their hard earned money for tithing. They did everything that you are probably doing as an active member.

And then something happened. Something didn't make sense to them. Something they were doing or being taught felt "off" to them. Most of them studied long and hard to find answers to the questions that were on their minds. Many of them hid their thoughts, feelings, and discoveries from their own spouses and their parents, their brothers and sisters, and their children. They felt betrayed, felt they'd been lied to. They decided that the church wasn't true, what they'd been taught wasn't true, what they invested their whole lives in wasn't true. Perhaps most of them lost belief in God or at least came to doubt that God exists.

Their discoveries in many or most cases, didn't give them a sense of freedom from religion or a desire to run out and wildly sin. Their discoveries caused them psychological and spiritual PAIN and FEAR. They went through a series of stages you might better recognize as the grief process. Some of them were scared to death of losing their spouses, their children, their parents, brothers and sisters, their church friends and professional ties.

Atlanticmike, some of them are venting, some are releasing frustrations, some of them follow church events and developments because it is part of their personal history and their culture. Some are hoping to see the church destroyed. Some of them are hoping their families would be open to the discoveries that they themselves learned because they are so concerned that their families are wasting their lives to something that is false.

I would say that ALL of them deeply love Mormons. Their spouses, children, parents, extended families, and friends are still Mormon.

I have known many of them online for decades. I have watched them go through sheer misery as they struggled with their doubts and discoveries. I walked alongside some of those posters up there in Terrestrial who corresponded with me during their challenges. I watched them go from belief to un-belief. From active LDS to atheist. A few rare folks found that they felt Christianity and other churches to be a good fit. I have even seen at least one poster go from atheism (previously active LDS) and back to the church again and he is happy where he is today.

If you want, you can start a thread to ask them about their departure from the LDS Church or ask them if they are angry and why. I am pretty sure they will disclose that for you.

I am a Never Mo. There's a couple or three or more of us floating around here. They seem to accept the occasions where I express my Christian perspectives. They are my friends.

Thanks Jersey Girl! All right, maybe hate was the wrong word to use to describe what I was reading last night. Also, I totally messed up the title of the my thread, because the threads I was reading last night had more to do with a dislike for certain politics, conservatives, Rush Limbaugh, the police , trumpsters and Fox news. I kinda lumped all that under the banner of Mormonism in my title, my fault. But what really kinda upset me last night was a thread comparing certain Mormons to celebrities and the first picture I saw on that thread was of a person I've talked to on another forum and I thought it was distasteful. But, after sleeping on it, I realized as a conservative it's not above me to poke fun at the other side and I probably need to put my big boy pants on if I'm going to converse with people on this forum. Again, sorry for using the word hate.
I look forward to being able to discuss Mormonism with everyone, I take a different approach to using the good Mormonism can offer someone in their life. My wife and I use Mormonism as a tool to teach our kids and we often go outside of the Mormon safety bubble to find different alternatives in teaching our kids if something else can be more beneficial. To us, it's all about raising well rounded young adults, no matter what.
I kinda just went through a mini faith crisis, I think, and have decided to stay in my faith. I can't see any benefit in leaving right now. Mormonism has a lot of flaws but the people are good, honest and hard working folks for the most part. I think what helped me stay in Mormonism after coming through a faith crisis is the fact that I'm not what you call an orthodox member. I'm more of a free spirit you could say. I have a weird way I describe myself, I often tell people I'm an 80% Mormon at heart. Basically, that just means I'm not apposed to outside influence if it's beneficial to me or my family, it's worked so far, so why change now, hopefully that makes sense. Anyways nice talking to you and everyone else who wrote me back, I look forward to talking to you, you can always ask me anything you want.

[Some Schmo]

I kinda just went through a mini faith crisis, I think, and have decided to stay in my faith. I can't see any benefit in leaving right now. Mormonism has a lot of flaws but the people are good, honest and hard working folks for the most part. I think what helped me stay in Mormonism after coming through a faith crisis is the fact that I'm not what you call an orthodox member. I'm more of a free spirit you could say. I have a weird way I describe myself, I often tell people I'm an 80% Mormon at heart. Basically, that just means I'm not apposed to outside influence if it's beneficial to me or my family, it's worked so far, so why change now, hopefully that makes sense.

I have a sister who claims she's still Mormon, claims she had a testimony of Joe Smith before Jesus, gets upset if you challenge Joe Smith's authenticity as a man of god, but you would never know it based on her lifestyle. She doesn't act like LDS. She swears, smokes, drinks, has divorced three times, and disagrees with LDS leadership regularly, to name some of the more obvious signals. There are plenty others.

It occurs to me that if you give extended thought to Mormon truth claims, at some point, you have to make a choice. Either swallow your common sense and keep believing, leave the church, or decide that you will construct your own version of Mormonism where you follow what you agree with and discard the rest. The last one describes my sister. Sounds like it might describe you too.

[Some Schmo]

Also, I totally messed up the title of the my thread, because the threads I was reading last night had more to do with a dislike for certain politics, conservatives, Rush Limbaugh, the police , trumpsters and Fox news. I kinda lumped all that under the banner of Mormonism in my title, my fault.

by the way, I have always considered myself a conservative, but the current incarnation of the GOP is anything but actually conservative. They only care about limiting spending when they aren't in power. Trump is about as conservative as a cocaine addict with a million dollars in his pocket. Watching politicians for years now, it seems to me what Democrats actually do is far more conservative than what the GOP does. The GOP wastes money like it grows on trees. They simply talk as though they care about spending.

Anyway, being a conservative and being religious are two completely separate things. What most people in this country consider to be American conservativism is actually more like fascism or a nationalism these days. If you are religious because you consider yourself conservative, or conservative because you consider yourself religious, you might want to try rethinking why you are either.

[Morley]

I have a sister who claims she's still Mormon, claims she had a testimony of Joe Smith before Jesus, gets upset if you challenge Joe Smith's authenticity as a man of god, but you would never know it based on her lifestyle. She doesn't act like LDS. She swears, smokes, drinks, has divorced three times, and disagrees with LDS leadership regularly, to name some of the more obvious signals. There are plenty others.

So, she's an originalist in her philosophy. This reads like a Joseph Smith / Brigham Young kind of Mormon.

[Atlanticmike]

I kinda just went through a mini faith crisis, I think, and have decided to stay in my faith. I can't see any benefit in leaving right now. Mormonism has a lot of flaws but the people are good, honest and hard working folks for the most part. I think what helped me stay in Mormonism after coming through a faith crisis is the fact that I'm not what you call an orthodox member. I'm more of a free spirit you could say. I have a weird way I describe myself, I often tell people I'm an 80% Mormon at heart. Basically, that just means I'm not apposed to outside influence if it's beneficial to me or my family, it's worked so far, so why change now, hopefully that makes sense.

I have a sister who claims she's still Mormon, claims she had a testimony of Joe Smith before Jesus, gets upset if you challenge Joe Smith's authenticity as a man of god, but you would never know it based on her lifestyle. She doesn't act like LDS. She swears, smokes, drinks, has divorced three times, and disagrees with LDS leadership regularly, to name some of the more obvious signals. There are plenty others.

It occurs to me that if you give extended thought to Mormon truth claims, at some point, you have to make a choice. Either swallow your common sense and keep believing, leave the church, or decide that you will construct your own version of Mormonism where you follow what you agree with and discard the rest. The last one describes my sister. Sounds like it might describe you too.

There's lots of ways to Morm. Your sister is no different than a large percentage of Mormons. Most Mormons don't even attend church and the ones that do, only half probably have a temple recommend. I think your sister and I would get along just fine. I'm a cusser to, when I get going on a cussing rant I could make a Navy Master Chief blush.

As far as Mormon truth claims go, are you saying you think there's "truth" in Mormonism? What truth are you talking about? Are you talking about the TRUTH that says every second we live we are a second closer to our final heart beat and that much closer to decaying inside a wooden box that's inside a concrete box that's 6' inside the earth? Because no religion is based on that truth, infact the truth claims found inside a religion should be looked at more like an ointment prescribed to be rubbed on a wound. The wound being the "reality" that one day we will all eventually die. That truth can only be found inside the heart.

Chief Tecumseh said, " So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion, respect others in their view, and demand they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the Great Divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones too fools and robs the spirit of its Vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

[Chap]

Atlanticmike -

I am genuinely grateful to you for explaining yourself so frankly.

Would I be misunderstanding you if I said that your way to 'Morm' means having been brought up in a Mormon cultural background, but, apart from that, thinking entirely for yourself about the general area of what has been called 'life, the universe and everything'? You don't for instance, seem to be impacted by standard CoJColDS truth claims about the destinations of human beings after death, the necessity of keeping covenants to obtain blessings, eternal families, and so on - the claims that it sends missionaries all over the world to get people to believe in. I think you and I would agree that he CoJCoLDS certainly does NOT hold to Tecumseh's principle of "Trouble no one about their religion"!

By that way of thinking, I would be a kind of Episcopalian still, since that is the way I was brought up, although I no longer believe in the reality of any deity or deities, and am pretty sure that when we die we are .... dead. Jesus was an ordinary human being who lived in the first century, and was born and died like the rest of us do. I would feel quite uncomfortable if anyone showed signs of thinking I was a Christian and I did not explain that I was not - the exception being, of course, where I might offend or hurt a well-meaning and uncombative person by seeming to despise their faith. Yet you are quite comfortable with being identified as a Mormon. Maybe for you it's a bit like being Jewish? There are plenty of atheist Jews who still don't want to be taken for gentiles.

[DrW]

Chief Tecumseh said, " So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion, respect others in their view, and demand they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the Great Divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones too fools and robs the spirit of its Vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

Thanks for posting this, Atlanticmike. I hadn't seen this quotation before. Certainly words that I would aspire to live by. Hard to imagine that those are the words of a respected and unifying leader of a people described as "dark and loathsome" Lamanites by the Book of Mormon - the book that Joseph Smith described as '"- the most correct of any book on this Earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book.”

As a proven work of pseudepigraphy, the Book of Mormon is not a book that I would ever aspire to live by. Nor does it reflect a god I would care get nearer.

[Dr. Shades]

Atlanticmike:

So, you’ve invented your own religion and are merely pretending that it’s “Mormonism?”

[Jersey Girl]

Welcome!

I don't think it's hatred. Try to understand that many of the posters in Terrestrial devoted decades of their lives from childhood through adulthood to their church. They trusted and believed what they were taught. They invested years going to 3 hour services on Sunday, Wednesday activities, they were baptized in early childhood, studied their scriptures, attended seminary early before school, they did temple work as expected, they served their 2 year mission, did visit teaching and acts of service. Many or most were sealed in the temple, some with and some without parents as witness. They raised their children in the same religious traditions and cultures that they were raised up in.

They invested their time and talents in holding church callings and their hard earned money for tithing. They did everything that you are probably doing as an active member.

And then something happened. Something didn't make sense to them. Something they were doing or being taught felt "off" to them. Most of them studied long and hard to find answers to the questions that were on their minds. Many of them hid their thoughts, feelings, and discoveries from their own spouses and their parents, their brothers and sisters, and their children. They felt betrayed, felt they'd been lied to. They decided that the church wasn't true, what they'd been taught wasn't true, what they invested their whole lives in wasn't true. Perhaps most of them lost belief in God or at least came to doubt that God exists.

Their discoveries in many or most cases, didn't give them a sense of freedom from religion or a desire to run out and wildly sin. Their discoveries caused them psychological and spiritual PAIN and FEAR. They went through a series of stages you might better recognize as the grief process. Some of them were scared to death of losing their spouses, their children, their parents, brothers and sisters, their church friends and professional ties.

Atlanticmike, some of them are venting, some are releasing frustrations, some of them follow church events and developments because it is part of their personal history and their culture. Some are hoping to see the church destroyed. Some of them are hoping their families would be open to the discoveries that they themselves learned because they are so concerned that their families are wasting their lives to something that is false.

I would say that ALL of them deeply love Mormons. Their spouses, children, parents, extended families, and friends are still Mormon.

I have known many of them online for decades. I have watched them go through sheer misery as they struggled with their doubts and discoveries. I walked alongside some of those posters up there in Terrestrial who corresponded with me during their challenges. I watched them go from belief to un-belief. From active LDS to atheist. A few rare folks found that they felt Christianity and other churches to be a good fit. I have even seen at least one poster go from atheism (previously active LDS) and back to the church again and he is happy where he is today.

If you want, you can start a thread to ask them about their departure from the LDS Church or ask them if they are angry and why. I am pretty sure they will disclose that for you.

I am a Never Mo. There's a couple or three or more of us floating around here. They seem to accept the occasions where I express my Christian perspectives. They are my friends.

Thanks Jersey Girl! All right, maybe hate was the wrong word to use to describe what I was reading last night.

Yes, there is far more going on here to lump it under the heading of hate.

Also, I totally messed up the title of the my thread, because the threads I was reading last night had more to do with a dislike for certain politics, conservatives, Rush Limbaugh, the police , trumpsters and Fox news. I kinda lumped all that under the banner of Mormonism in my title, my fault. But what really kinda upset me last night was a thread comparing certain Mormons to celebrities and the first picture I saw on that thread was of a person I've talked to on another forum and I thought it was distasteful. But, after sleeping on it, I realized as a conservative it's not above me to poke fun at the other side and I probably need to put my big boy pants on if I'm going to converse with people on this forum. Again, sorry for using the word hate.

I appreciate your intellectual honesty. People will post comments that you'll likely find triggering. I know there are posters here in Paradise that make comments with regard to religion that sort of disappoint me because I think they're unduly harsh. I recognize and accept that everyone has a right to their journey and also the right to speak freely at any point in that journey about what is on their mind. I tend not to discuss faith perspectives much here. It's not because I fear being attacked it's just that I think I have the ability to read the room. But when I do offer a believing perspective, people seem to be okay with that. I don't know why that is exactly but that's how I seem to be received around here.

I look forward to being able to discuss Mormonism with everyone, I take a different approach to using the good Mormonism can offer someone in their life. My wife and I use Mormonism as a tool to teach our kids and we often go outside of the Mormon safety bubble to find different alternatives in teaching our kids if something else can be more beneficial. To us, it's all about raising well rounded young adults, no matter what.

I think there are many ways to teach your children the values you'd like to teach them without any religion at all. I respect that you are finding value in Mormonism for your children. I've been to the local Ward and Stake many times myself. I found the family offerings, in most cases, to be admirable and wholesome.

I kinda just went through a mini faith crisis, I think, and have decided to stay in my faith. I can't see any benefit in leaving right now.

If you want to discuss the source of your mini faith crisis, feel free. Just know that there are a high number of people here who are probably miles ahead of where you are at with regard to to faith crises and they might come down hard on an issue because they've been there/done that but there are many here who can remember what it was like to be where you are at as well.

Mormonism has a lot of flaws but the people are good, honest and hard working folks for the most part.

I can't disagree with that. I do think that the higher up you go in the church hierarchy you can find people whose egos have gotten the best of them or sometimes even fear of being exposed should they express doubt or disagreement. I can say that about my own church that I left years ago. I can, in fact, say that about most any organization when I got closer to the top or inside of it. I haven't participated in organized religion for, I dunno, maybe 15 years? I have gone to church on special days and of course solemn services such as funerals and memorial services, also weddings. I've attended all sorts of denominations, not because I was searching but because I went there to support friends and acquaintances. I am not involved in a particular church congregation any more.

When I first came online 20+ years ago I was investigating Mormonism. (There's a story there!) At some point I got really angry about what I had learned and I was worried that my LDS friends were being deceived. If you notice a poster here in Paradise named Gunnar, he is one that saw me at the very height of my anger. We go back a long way. One of the reasons I left my own church had to do with their treatment of LDS...not in our church, but the way they spoke of Mormons. I'll tell you the story sometime if you want. I don't think it's posted on this new version of Mormon Discussions, though it might be. I think I have pandemic brain at this point.

I think what helped me stay in Mormonism after coming through a faith crisis is the fact that I'm not what you call an orthodox member. I'm more of a free spirit you could say. I have a weird way I describe myself, I often tell people I'm an 80% Mormon at heart. Basically, that just means I'm not apposed to outside influence if it's beneficial to me or my family, it's worked so far, so why change now, hopefully that makes sense. Anyways nice talking to you and everyone else who wrote me back, I look forward to talking to you, you can always ask me anything you want.

Can you name one or two outside influences that you feel are acceptable and beneficial to your family?

I didn't say this when I intro'd myself to you but I worked with children and their families most of my adult life so the nature of families, family culture, parenting perspectives, child development and issues regarding child advocacy are pretty much what makes me tick. What will draw my attention more than anything else around here is when someone shares part of their personal history...their stories and particularly f it goes back into childhood.

*sigh* I'm a mixed bag of interests and ideas.