WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[huckelberry]

Markk wrote: My point about Cooper and still is that his claim, which was disputed by some, is that the Germans were no prepared for the Millions of political prisoners, POW's, and Jew's.....which is just a historical fact.

Huck Replied: Markk, this historical fact has not been rejected. It is true but is an obvious and trivial truth.

Marcus is rejecting it and pasting from a Liberal Israeli Web site who rejects it.

I don't think history of the Holocaust is trivial, and I understand you would never mean it that way and maybe could worded that differently. I believe it is important from several different reasons.

There is so much to think about with this. When you see the history of how after invading Poland, and having millions of folks to "deal" with in regard to their hate policies....it really shows how they just were not prepared for it. They certainly had the philosophy behind wanting to be great Arian nation and have a thousand years Reich....but the more you read about it, the more we see that they weren't prepared and I believe that is a import part of the history, and again I believe we should not view the history leading up to and reasons for places like the Warsaw Ghetto as a trivial truth.

Markk, I can see jthat it can be worthwhile to consider possible meanings of aspects of the events which may be trivial in some perspective. I will propose meaning here.
Even if you believe yourself reasonable refined and principled if you start a project with the ideas of ethnic superiority, inferiority of Poles, Slaves and the malignancy of Jews the difficulty of reality will reveal the horror of your project and the demonic nature of the project. People may not like the steps descending into hell but will be required to continue.

As they become demons of hell they will think of themselves as courageous and honorable not really liking the nasty parts.

[huckelberry]

Markk, when I first heard of Cooper exploring Jones liberal starting point I thought that sounded like tool to say how corrupt liberal ideas are. I am not finding where but another poster accused Cooper of employing this propaganda device.

I listened to the interview with Rogan .in it it was clear Cooper had real respect for the liberal beginings of the peoples temple. It became corrupted by amphetamines, temptation to power, and the climate of fear and irrationality of the first years of the 70s.

[Marcus]

Markk wrote: My point about Cooper and still is that his claim, which was disputed by some, is that the Germans were no prepared for the Millions of political prisoners, POW's, and Jew's.....which is just a historical fact.

Huck Replied: Markk, this historical fact has not been rejected. It is true but is an obvious and trivial truth.

Marcus is rejecting it and pasting from a Liberal Israeli Web site who rejects it.

Lol. See canpakes' post.

In the meantime, do you understand the impact of Cooper's error that you repeated?

That is just false and a spin of what he actual said in context. Cooper was quoting history, a Nazi commandant that was actually in charge of starving the Jews, that you're some how implying did not happen, that is in the mind of Neo-Nazis?

He wasn't 'quoting history,' he was wrong. From a press release by the World Holocaust Remembrance Center:

Cooper attempts to prove his mistaken point by quoting a letter supposedly from a German Wehrmacht officer, where he indicates that the murder of civilians and POWS in the USSR was out of “humane” concerns due to insufficient food supplies. This, too, is patently false. In reality, the letter by SS officer Rolf-Heinz Höppner on 16 July 1941, advocated for the murder of all the Jews in the western region of occupied Poland, called by the Nazis the Warthegau. Misrepresenting this as anything but intentional mass murder distorts history and downplays the Nazis responsibility for the Holocaust and for their other crimes.
https://www.yadvashem.org/press-release ... 16-52.html

[Marcus]

My point about Cooper and still is that his claim, which was disputed by some, is that the Germans were no prepared for the Millions of political prisoners, POW's, and Jew's.....which is just a historical fact.

You are just making stuff up and trying to put words in my mouth, I never said in any context.

Markk, this historical fact has not been rejected. It is true but is an obvious and trivial truth.

The question people keep trying to pursue is ,so what?

Well, not quite. The passage I quoted was very specific about why Cooper focused on this, how wrong he was, and the damage he is doing:

...Cooper claimed that the Nazis were "unprepared" to handle millions of prisoners of war and political dissidents, suggesting their brutality was a result of poor planning. This statement is patently false. The German invasion of the Soviet Union was long-planned and included genocidal strategies of dealing with the local Jewish population not as a response to logistical challenges, but as an ideological one...

Even the site Markk quoted from emphasizes this. in my opinion, Markk is taking from Cooper a simplistic version of what was happening. Cooper, and by extension Markk, are simplifying the history in a way that minimizes and revises the horrific nature of what happened.

Markk finds Cooper charismatic and fun to listen to, but unfortunately he seems to value those attributes far more than the more rigorous approach of taking a careful, measured look at history. It's a very simple and unsophisticated approach to learning that doesn't seem to be serving Markk well, in my opinion.

Markk sums up with this:

...When you see the history of how after invading Poland, and having millions of folks to "deal" with in regard to their hate policies....it really shows how they just were not prepared for it. They certainly had the philosophy behind wanting to be great Arian nation and have a thousand years Reich....but the more you read about it, the more we see that they weren't prepared and I believe that is a import part of the history,..

According to the world holocaust remembrance center, he is falling for Cooper's errors in presenting history, and making interpretations that minimize what happened. I agree.

And last, unlike Markk and his unfortunate tendency to be enamored of the charismatic opinions of a factually challenged Cooper, I put considerably more weight on an actual historian's opinion, which, luckily for us, we have here!

This thread warms the cockles of my historian's heart. It is great to see how misunderstandings of history really do have negative consequences, while a solid understanding of history is a decent guard against the pathogen of historical ignorance. It is too bad that conspiracy theorists and their theories seem to be impervious to these lessons. Still, it is absolutely imperative to correct the record, as many of you have here against Markk's version of Cooper's ideas.

[Markk]

Marcus is rejecting it and pasting from a Liberal Israeli Web site who rejects it.

That so-called ‘liberal Israeli website’ is the World Holocaust Remembrance Center in Israel. It is hitting the nail on the head here, in addressing Cooper’s Sad Nazi story, which you keep trying to avoid.

About the WHRC, from Wiki:

“Yad Vashem (Hebrew: יָד וַשֵׁם; lit. 'a memorial and a name') is Israel's official memorial institution to the victims of the Holocaust known in Hebrew as the Shoah (שואה). It is dedicated to preserving the memory of the Jews who were murdered; echoing the stories of the survivors; honoring Jews who fought against their Nazi oppressors and gentiles who selflessly aided Jews in need; and researching the phenomenon of the Holocaust in particular and genocide in general, with the aim of avoiding such events in the future. Yad Vashem's vision, as stated on its website, is: "To lead the documentation, research, education and commemoration of the Holocaust, and to convey the chronicles of this singular Jewish and human event to every person in Israel, to the Jewish people, and to every significant and relevant audience worldwide."

Established in 1953, Yad Vashem is located on the Mount of Remembrance, on the western slope of Mount Herzl, a height in western Jerusalem, 804 meters (2,638 ft) above sea level and adjacent to the Jerusalem Forest. The memorial consists of a 180-dunam (18.0 ha; 44.5-acre) complex containing two types of facilities: some dedicated to the scientific study of the Holocaust, and memorials and museums serving the needs of the wider public. Among the former are an International Research Institute for Holocaust Research, an archives, a library, a publishing house and the International School for Holocaust Studies; the latter include the Holocaust History Museum, memorial sites such as the Children's Memorial and the Hall of Remembrance, the Museum of Holocaust Art, sculptures, outdoor commemorative sites such as the Valley of the Communities, as well as a synagogue.“

You’re now attempting to throw one of the world’s premier sources of Holocaust studies out the window in favor of a ‘historian’ pushing a Nazi apologetic narrative, because you couldn’t follow a conversation.

Okay, then you believe that the Nazis were indeed prepared, and that the site I referenced, is incorrect, and history is incorrect? Is it your position that the Germans, when invading Poland, were prepared for "caring for," meaning in a negative context, the millions of people that I described.

Establishment of Ghettos
The Germans began World War II by invading Poland in September 1939. The Nazi leaders then shifted priorities in anti-Jewish policy from expulsion from German-controlled territory to concentration of European Jewish populations in locations suited to future permanent removal. It is not clear that the Nazi leaders were already envisioning mass murder as their "solution" to their so-called Jewish problem.

As a temporary measure, while the top leadership considered long-term options, German authorities established ghettos in the Generalgouvernement (that part of German-occupied Poland not directly annexed to Germany, attached to German East Prussia or incorporated into the German-occupied Soviet Union) and in the District Wartheland, commonly called the Warthegau (an area of western Poland directly annexed to the German Reich). From late 1939, German SS and police authorities deported Polish, German, Austrian, and Czech Jews to these ghettos.

Please show me how the were prepared to deal with the final solution? My second question is why didn't the Germans sent the three million Jews to the Gas Chambers from day one?

[canpakes]

Please show me how the were prepared to deal with the final solution? My second question is why didn't the Germans sent the three million Jews to the Gas Chambers from day one?

Three million?

[Markk]

I’ll just keep repeating the obvious as many times as you want to dance around it. Just like I can keep repeating the original questions that don’t ask you anything about ‘temporary solutions’ and that you can’t bring yourself to answer:

1. Can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them”… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps?

2. Do you believe Cooper’s claim?

It is such a dumb question I answered before....

Read: by Markk » Tue Jun 24, 2025 9:24 pm

I actually asked you a question in my OP, I was waiting for you to answer.

1. I gave a response to question one of my post that you obviously missed. It was a temporary solution while the leadership, I guess primarily Himmler, Heydrich, and Hitler, figured out their options. If you watched the podcast or read the posts, according to Cooper, which I agree, Germany was not prepared for handling millions of Jews, POWs, and political prisoners collectively. This seems totally plausible to me, and I plan to read more about this. It is something I never thought much about before I heard his take on it.

2. What claim? ...I said I agreed with his assertion that Germany was not prepared for taking care of the millions of folks they were going to "capture" and or "arrest." I also said I disagreed with his take on Churchill.

Apparently you have a claim in mind, what is it and do you agree and/or disagree, and why?

I'll add to 1. That the ghettos served as the temporary solution, until the camps could be built and put into operation. I have no idea what you mean about them feeling stressed, it is just a dumb statement. If you are refereeing to many SS soldiers becoming stressed and psychologically unnerved by the having to shoot the Jews, even Himmler....then show me how that is not true?

In regard to 2. and maybe you missed this also....this is what Cooper said that I was discussing, and yes I agree with this, as does Huck, Morley, Gad, and in all honesty history,....you disagree with this, why?

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

You keep asking the same question over and over as if you have some kind of smoking gum revelation that the Ghettos were not a temporary measure, okay, fair enough, so show me that they were permanent, and that the Germans were actually prepared?

[Markk]

Please show me how the were prepared to deal with the final solution? My second question is why didn't the Germans sent the three million Jews to the Gas Chambers from day one?

Three million?

Yes, there were around 3.3 Million Jews in Poland when the Germans invaded Poland. In one of your posts you mention gas vans, which by the way were made for mentally ill folks in Germany, as some sort of plan for the extermination of these 3.3 Million Jews, and this was just in Poland. At the time you wrote that I knew you had no idea what you were talking about and just shined that on as ignorance, but now I see how far you ignorance goes in not knowing how many Jews lived in Poland at the time of the invasion.

[canpakes]

Three million?

Yes, there were around 3.3 Million Jews in Poland when the Germans invaded Poland. In one of your posts you mention gas vans, which by the way were made for mentally ill folks in Germany, as some sort of plan for the extermination of these 3.3 Million Jews, and this was just in Poland. At the time you wrote that I knew you had no idea what you were talking about and just shined that on as ignorance, but now I see how far you ignorance goes in not knowing how many Jews lived in Poland at the time of the invasion.

Markk, you didn’t specify Poland in that post, did you? No, you did not. ; ) You didn’t even state 3.3 million.

I also didn’t say that mobile gas vans were set up to exterminate Polish Jews. I only mentioned that they were in use and tested as early as 1939. Reread this if you are suffering from comprehension issues.

viewtopic.php?p=2898146#p2898146

Also, from that same post:

“Why did the Nazis seize these so-called ‘political prisoners’ in the first place? Why do you think that the Nazis beat, starved and shot all of these political prisoners, then rounded up the remainder that had somehow managed to survive and shipped them off to concentration camps? Do you believe that there was ever a plan in place to release these political prisoners at some point, down the road?”

This has always been what my question is about. You don’t seem to be able or willing to answer it.

Neither Morley’s question nor mine were focused on whether or not the Nazis had logistical difficulties in collecting over 6 million Jews before killing them. Our focus is on Cooper implying that the Holocaust, as it ended up, was an unfortunate result of poor planning, inasmuch as if the Germans had just had enough food to feed their prisoners, then they would never had had to - or wanted to - kill them.

Nobody but has been mentioning the logistics of moving prisoners around as an excuse for something. Only you keep attempting to distract with that for some reason. Not even Cooper mentions this; Cooper is talking about feeding the imprisoned Jews. If you’re going to puff out your chest while loudly trying to tell other folks how ignorant they supposedly are, at least know what they’re discussing, first. : )

My questions stand:

1. Can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them”… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps?

2. Do you believe Cooper’s claim?

Markk, did the Nazis end up implementing the Holocaust because they ran out of food and started humanely killing off their hungry prisoners? Or was killing them off pretty much the plan from the start? That’s the focus of Morley’s and my questions.

[Marcus]

...In regard to 2. and maybe you missed this also....this is what Cooper said that I was discussing, and yes I agree with this, as does Huck, Morley, Gad, and in all honesty history,....you disagree with this, why?

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

Markk, Cooper was wrong about the letter. He wasn't 'quoting history,' he was wrong. From a press release by the World Holocaust Remembrance Center:

Cooper attempts to prove his mistaken point by quoting a letter supposedly from a German Wehrmacht officer, where he indicates that the murder of civilians and POWS in the USSR was out of “humane” concerns due to insufficient food supplies. This, too, is patently false. In reality, the letter by SS officer Rolf-Heinz Höppner on 16 July 1941, advocated for the murder of all the Jews in the western region of occupied Poland, called by the Nazis the Warthegau. Misrepresenting this as anything but intentional mass murder distorts history and downplays the Nazis responsibility for the Holocaust and for their other crimes.
https://www.yadvashem.org/press-release ... 16-52.html

You are using a falsehood to try to support your opinion. And, since you've done this before, to my surprise, please don't even think about writing something like, "okay, well so I was maybe wrong about the details, but my point still stands!"

That's illogical, lazy and reflects very poor analytical skills.