WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[canpakes]

Markk, you invoked my name in at least 5 previous posts within this thread, so I figure that you just missed my questions:


1. Can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them”… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps?

2. Do you believe Cooper’s claim?

I actually asked you a question in my OP, I was waiting for you to answer.

1. I gave a response to question one of my post that you obviously missed. It was a temporary solution while the leadership, I guess primarily Himmler, Heydrich, and Hitler, figured out their options. If you watched the podcast or read the posts, according to Cooper, which I agree, Germany was not prepared for handling millions of Jews, POWs, and political prisoners collectively. This seems totally plausible to me, and I plan to read more about this. It is something I never thought much about before I heard his take on it.

A ‘temporary solution’?

Here are some problems with this opinion, as I see it:

- Killing people is not a temporary solution. It’s pretty permanent.
- The Nazis were already using mobile gas vans and killing centers as early as 1939.
- Aktion Reinhard - the plan offering a ‘Final Solution’ - was created in 1941. This was not referred to as a ‘final solution’ because Nazis were putting people in camps for holiday, right?
- Many trainloads of prisoners were offloaded directly into gassing rooms upon arrival. There was no time to even consider needing to feed them.

Why did the Nazis seize these so-called ‘political prisoners’ in the first place? Why do you think that the Nazis beat, starved and shot all of these political prisoners, then rounded up the remainder that had somehow managed to survive and shipped them off to concentration camps? Do you believe that there was ever a plan in place to release these political prisoners at some point, down the road?

Cooper’s narrative seems contrived, and insults the millions of people who died at the hands of a process that was designed from the start to kill them. Why would you give credence to a claim that gassing them was some kind of ‘temporary’ measure undertaken because the Germans didn’t figure out a way to house and feed them? This is certainly odd phrasing.

2. What claim? ...I said I agreed with his assertion that Germany was not prepared for taking care of the millions of folks they were going to "capture" and or "arrest." I also said I disagreed with his take on Churchill.

Apparently you have a claim in mind, what is it and do you agree and/or disagree, and why?

Cooper’s claim of an accidental Holocaust, and your defense of that claim.

[Markk]

Cakes: A ‘temporary solution’?

Here are some problems with this opinion, as I see it:

Well, if you believe that the Ghettos were a planned and permanent solution, tell me why....then we can explore our two different views on this. Tell me why the Ghettos were a permanent solution, in context being the opposite of a temporary solution?

[Markk]

Cakes: Cooper’s claim of an accidental Holocaust, and your defense of that claim.

Please show me where Cooper said that the Holocaust was an accident?

[Chap]

Will someone explain to me why this guy Cooper is worth talking about?

There appears to be no reason to think that his views on the historical topics under discussion are worth a pitcher of warm spit.

[Markk]

Will someone explain to me why this guy Cooper is worth talking about?

There appears to be no reason to think that his views on the historical topics under discussion are worth a pitcher of warm spit.

The irony

Yet Ceeboo Chap has registered to take part in a discussion board. And he says explicitly that he does not wish to "have discussions" on this board

[canpakes]

Cakes: Cooper’s claim of an accidental Holocaust, and your defense of that claim.

Please show me where Cooper said that the Holocaust was an accident?

You seem to be alluding to this here:

Morley: Even your reading of Shirer’s The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich would have made it pretty clear that the Holocaust was rooted in Nazi ideology from the very beginning. (And Shirer wrote before they found the troves of damning Nazi documents.) Heh, the plan for the final solution even has its roots in Mein Kampf.

Yes. But according to Cooper it was also gradual, in a short time. It is not like there was 100 years to put this together. Hitler started his rise in what 1920, he went to prison and was the party leader in around 1925, and Fuhrer by 1934, and dead by 1945. That's just 25 years Morley of making this all happen, and practically only about a dozen years with real power to start to implementing it.

When the war started they had six concentration camps, mainly started for political prisoners. By 1944 they had over 1000 camps, including main camps and smaller camps. Auschwitz was a army barracks, and was converted to a concentration camp after the invasion, and it wasn't until 1942 that Jews were sent there and gassed.

I don't recall the name of a book I read about the SS and the early days of extermination. But it read that, under Himmler, who was timid and had a weak stomach himself, the SS were suffering from having to shoot the Jews before they started gassing them. Alcoholism and morale were real problems here. It was then that gas became the way. They started to experiment with gas vans and smaller chambers around 1941, then in '42 they went full force with the gas...in those early days they starved and worked the Jews to death, or just shot them.

Cooper's point was at the beginning of the war they were not ready for all the POWs and Jews. When they invaded Poland the Germans, basically overnight, had 3 million Jews to deal with. And again they had six camps. They took around 400k Polish POWs. They took 2 million French POWs in the Battle for France 6 months or so later. Then Barbarossa, they had by early 1942 3.5 Million Russian POWs.

War to a great degree is reactionary, despite planning.

Expand on the bolded part of your statement. What is Cooper’s extended point about gas chamber use, or the Holocaust? What is ‘not ready’ implying?

[Chap]

Will someone explain to me why this guy Cooper is worth talking about?

There appears to be no reason to think that his views on the historical topics under discussion are worth a pitcher of warm spit.

The irony

Yet Ceeboo Chap has registered to take part in a discussion board. And he says explicitly that he does not wish to "have discussions" on this board

Naah. Good try, but no cigar. I am asking a genuine question about the thread we are on. Try answering it.

[Markk]

Please show me where Cooper said that the Holocaust was an accident?

You seem to be alluding to this here:

Yes. But according to Cooper it was also gradual, in a short time. It is not like there was 100 years to put this together. Hitler started his rise in what 1920, he went to prison and was the party leader in around 1925, and Fuhrer by 1934, and dead by 1945. That's just 25 years Morley of making this all happen, and practically only about a dozen years with real power to start to implementing it.

When the war started they had six concentration camps, mainly started for political prisoners. By 1944 they had over 1000 camps, including main camps and smaller camps. Auschwitz was a army barracks, and was converted to a concentration camp after the invasion, and it wasn't until 1942 that Jews were sent there and gassed.

I don't recall the name of a book I read about the SS and the early days of extermination. But it read that, under Himmler, who was timid and had a weak stomach himself, the SS were suffering from having to shoot the Jews before they started gassing them. Alcoholism and morale were real problems here. It was then that gas became the way. They started to experiment with gas vans and smaller chambers around 1941, then in '42 they went full force with the gas...in those early days they starved and worked the Jews to death, or just shot them.

Cooper's point was at the beginning of the war they were not ready for all the POWs and Jews. When they invaded Poland the Germans, basically overnight, had 3 million Jews to deal with. And again they had six camps. They took around 400k Polish POWs. They took 2 million French POWs in the Battle for France 6 months or so later. Then Barbarossa, they had by early 1942 3.5 Million Russian POWs.

War to a great degree is reactionary, despite planning.

Expand on the bolded part of your statement. What is Cooper’s extended point about gas chamber use, or the Holocaust? What is ‘not ready’ implying?

Where did cooper say that the holocaust was accidental....?

I will wait for your answer on your opinion on why the Ghettos were a permanent solution as opposed to a temporary measure?

[canpakes]

Will someone explain to me why this guy Cooper is worth talking about?

There appears to be no reason to think that his views on the historical topics under discussion are worth a pitcher of warm spit.

The irony

Yet Ceeboo Chap has registered to take part in a discussion board. And he says explicitly that he does not wish to "have discussions" on this board

There’s a bit of a difference. With all due respect to Ceeboo, his usual participation these days is limited to dropping by long enough to post about how everyone else’s opinion is ludicrous, followed by then declaring that he won’t discuss anything.
: D

[canpakes]

Expand on the bolded part of your statement. What is Cooper’s extended point about gas chamber use, or the Holocaust? What is ‘not ready’ implying?

Where did cooper say that the holocaust was accidental....?

I didn’t say that he said this directly. But I’m asking for you to clarify what you believe Cooper’s extended point was about gas chamber use, or the Holocaust. What is ‘not ready’ implying?

You’ve been freely paraphrasing Cooper in this thread. You should be able to do so with the questions above.