Four Hours at the Capitol: A Must Watch HBO Documentary

[Kishkumen]

Odd as it may be, I agree with all of this.

There are nuances of differences but for the most part, I agree.

Here is a difference that I will point out. But I want to be clear that I do not disagree with Kish, I just see it differently. I am not saying “yes, but.” I am saying, “yes, AND....”

Not everyone sees this as an insurrection to overthrow a perfect election or perfect republic or a perfect democracy. For many, it was a rebellion against a flawed, imperfect and non-transparent process. Their loyalty and hope for the country could have been as altruistic or sincere as protesters from 2016/2017 or fanatics of the Russia conspiracy. Their anxiety may have been as peaked (or piqued - for Kish!) by the riots of 2020 and the polarization of the election.

By stereotyping all the participants as insurrectionists by association (an argument that Kish solidly makes), we are moving toward polarization not away from it. We are cultivating more extreme reactions, not less.

I don't believe that a perfect election or a perfect republic or a perfect democracy is possible. What I don't like to see is people violently rising up when a lunatic falsely convinces people to rise up because he didn't get his way. We collectively keep falling for the same trick. We allow moneyed interests, individual or corporate, to coopt our movements and destroy them. The people Trumpists are fighting for don't give a crap about them, just like the Democratic Party doesn't give a crap about and effectively abandoned many of its constituents. The end of the Bernie movement was completely predictable because there was no way that the Democratic machine was really going to allow Bernie to be the nominee.

People are happy to go to a protest and put on a funny hat, but are they happy to support a decent, knowledgable third party candidate?

I say no. Most people just want an acceptable brand to send their money to in order to get the job they want done. Their brand will either masturbate on the American flag or torture itself masochistically to find a pure form of politically correct speech. Choose your poison. And we do it every time we go to the voting booth to vote for these Relief Society and Ds again. They are paid for. Corporate America and the billionaires own them. It may be the case that Donald, being a shallow, unreflective narcissist did not see how owned he was before he became president; I just think he was waiting to sell himself on the terms he approved of. That's always the person he has been.

So we may not be able to have anything other than a sham democracy, very limited republic that is more like the aristocratic monopoly of the Roman Republic than the democracy that our optimistic Democratic friends dream of. What Democrats in power will bring about is a new elite that is just as class restricted as the old but will have racially and gender diverse people in it. They talk about free medicine and so forth, but when push comes to shove they will say that grownups know we can't afford everything. The GOP would happily sell out to a strong man so long as he gives them huge tax breaks. It's mostly about the money, and I know because I have rich friends who justified Trump to me with a straight face. They just didn't want to see how bad he was.

I don't have much hope that anything different will happen because the one thing that the billionaires can agree on is that they should make out like bandits without having to pay any real consequences for the collateral damage to their quest for loot.

[Cultellus]

Kish, I am very worried about your street cred. Very very worried.

I love your post. I agree with you.

[ceeboo]

Kish, I am very worried about your street cred. Very very worried.

I love your post. I agree with you.

Fortunately for the board, in my opinion, Kish isn't concerned about his street cred - The thoughts he shares are his (and his alone) and he doesn't play the team game. I know this because I have been reading his board contributions for several years (It's one of the things that I admire and respect about him)

[honorentheos]

The day after the election, it is understandable that a person would have questions regarding the processes involved in the election given the reporting. I can't begrudge a person for whom the declared result didn't sit well while accusations of fraudulent activity were debated on national news.

After the accusers had numerous chances to present their cases in court, making watered down claims compared to their heated public rhetoric, and absolute failure to demonstrate the election had been compromised in a meaningful manner while having practically every claim dismissed for lack of evidence by Republican and Democrat appointed judges, I stop being understanding. At that point a person who wanted to see slates of electoral votes dismissed and the Vice President of the United States violate the Constitution and democratic tradition was anti-American in belief and practices. Period. I cannot equivocate on that issue. One doesn't attempt to undermine the processes of democracy and democratic institutions and also get to maintain they were being patriotic. Not by January 6th.

[honorentheos]

The people Trumpists are fighting for don't give a crap about them, just like the Democratic Party doesn't give a crap about and effectively abandoned many of its constituents. The end of the Bernie movement was completely predictable because there was no way that the Democratic machine was really going to allow Bernie to be the nominee.

People are happy to go to a protest and put on a funny hat, but are they happy to support a decent, knowledgable third party candidate?

I say no. Most people just want an acceptable brand to send their money to in order to get the job they want done. Their brand will either masturbate on the American flag or torture itself masochistically to find a pure form of politically correct speech. Choose your poison. And we do it every time we go to the voting booth to vote for these Relief Society and Ds again. They are paid for. Corporate America and the billionaires own them. It may be the case that Donald, being a shallow, unreflective narcissist did not see how owned he was before he became president; I just think he was waiting to sell himself on the terms he approved of. That's always the person he has been.

So we may not be able to have anything other than a sham democracy, very limited republic that is more like the aristocratic monopoly of the Roman Republic than the democracy that our optimistic Democratic friends dream of. What Democrats in power will bring about is a new elite that is just as class restricted as the old but will have racially and gender diverse people in it. They talk about free medicine and so forth, but when push comes to shove they will say that grownups know we can't afford everything. The GOP would happily sell out to a strong man so long as he gives them huge tax breaks. It's mostly about the money, and I know because I have rich friends who justified Trump to me with a straight face. They just didn't want to see how bad he was.

I don't have much hope that anything different will happen because the one thing that the billionaires can agree on is that they should make out like bandits without having to pay any real consequences for the collateral damage to their quest for loot.

I very much agree with the sentiment around moneyed interests and general lack of determined difference between Democrats and traditional Republicans. I do disagree that Sanders was a viably good candidate. Regardless, there is a scaling issue within US politics where no candidate at the national level is going to really meet a high level of genuine approval because no person who actually does things could do so. We are too many and too diverse. In a nation of over 330 million people with rapidly diversifying backgrounds and beliefs there will always be losers, there will always be elites. The solution isn't in finding the perfect person. It's in embracing better principles. A massive nation-state requires something most can agree on to cohere. Until the most recent decades this was the belief in access to prosperity even when for many this was a illusion. That promise appears broken to far too many, and to many more it appears threatened by those who want revolution because the odds for them aren't necessarily in favor of them being better off after a shake-up.

This is why it is concerning that we meet the question of, "What principles or beliefs do Americans share across political lines?" with a shrug at best, and even outright hostility at the mere suggestion one could have anything in common with the other side at all.

[Kishkumen]

I do disagree that Sanders was a viably good candidate.

Oh, did someone here say he was?

[Kishkumen]

After the accusers had numerous chances to present their cases in court, making watered down claims compared to their heated public rhetoric, and absolute failure to demonstrate the election had been compromised in a meaningful manner while having practically every claim dismissed for lack of evidence by Republican and Democrat appointed judges, I stop being understanding. At that point a person who wanted to see slates of electoral votes dismissed and the Vice President of the United States violate the Constitution and democratic tradition was anti-American in belief and practices. Period. I cannot equivocate on that issue. One doesn't attempt to undermine the processes of democracy and democratic institutions and also get to maintain they were being patriotic. Not by January 6th.

Agreed.

[canpakes]

Given the weaponizing and politicization of everything these days (including the horrific events of January 6th), …

Ceeboo, given that this event is essentially as political as possible, being a political rally organized by politicians to address an election claim regarding politicians, and rooted within one political party calling another’s election fraudulent, I’m not sure that it’s possible to claim that anyone else aside from the participants and organizers themselves could have done anything more to politicize it.

Politicization was literally engineered into the DNA of the event.

… an ever-growing number of American citizens that have no interest in sincere engagement with anyone who doesn't think and/or believe like they do.

We just witnessed a political party within one state demand a hand recount, which was then conducted by partisan players … and when it didn’t produce the result that the members of that party wanted, many within it then moved on to the position that even this recount was fraudulent.

I don’t know how to help anyone move beyond that and into a rational discourse, if that’s what they choose to believe.

How should anyone proceed with that?

[Cultellus]

The day after the election, it is understandable that a person would have questions regarding the processes involved in the election given the reporting. I can't begrudge a person for whom the declared result didn't sit well while accusations of fraudulent activity were debated on national news.

After the accusers had numerous chances to present their cases in court, making watered down claims compared to their heated public rhetoric, and absolute failure to demonstrate the election had been compromised in a meaningful manner while having practically every claim dismissed for lack of evidence by Republican and Democrat appointed judges, I stop being understanding. At that point a person who wanted to see slates of electoral votes dismissed and the Vice President of the United States violate the Constitution and democratic tradition was anti-American in belief and practices. Period. I cannot equivocate on that issue. One doesn't attempt to undermine the processes of democracy and democratic institutions and also get to maintain they were being patriotic. Not by January 6th.

Meh. Sure. And someone else disagrees. So here we are.

[canpakes]

We just witnessed a political party within one state demand a hand recount, which was then conducted by partisan players … and when it didn’t produce the result that the members of that party wanted, many within it then moved on to the position that even this recount was fraudulent.

I don’t know how to help anyone move beyond that and into a rational discourse, if that’s what they choose to believe.

How should anyone proceed with that?

Case in point:

After the accusers had numerous chances to present their cases in court, making watered down claims compared to their heated public rhetoric, and absolute failure to demonstrate the election had been compromised in a meaningful manner while having practically every claim dismissed for lack of evidence by Republican and Democrat appointed judges, I stop being understanding.
…
One doesn't attempt to undermine the processes of democracy and democratic institutions and also get to maintain they were being patriotic. Not by January 6th.

Meh. Sure. And someone else disagrees. So here we are.

Ceeboo, what’s the solution? Just let folks who deny reality their ‘freedom’ to undermine democracy until they get what they want by whatever method they want to use?