"Are you on your period or something?" and other sexist remarks

[Res Ipsa]

From time to time my wife and I misgender our daughter. She and her brother diligently call our attention to it every time. We don’t explain about how difficult it is to switch pronouns after a decade and a half of use. We don’t respond by accusing them of calling us evil transphobia, we don’t point out how rude it is to interrupt us, we don’t explain that we’d do better if she’d just dress a little bit girly, we don’t tell them to lighten up — we’re doing our best.

We just say “thanks” or “sorry” and move on.

So, why is it that men flip out when women point out sexist language? It’s not just here — it’s everywhere. Seriously, men tend to react as if they’ve seen their name in NYT headline announcing that they are pedophiles. Why such a strong reaction?

Good for your daughter, and your son!!!

Sometimes I wonder if my policy here of calling out only the absolutely most egregious sexist expressions is helping anyone. I comment on maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 times I see it happen, and the times I don't it's because I am trying to avoid just what is happening in this thread from a few- the name calling, the condescending and abusive language, the demeaning assumption (invariably) that I "see sexism everywhere."

It's demoralizing to realize that when a woman stands up for herself, there are still plenty of people ready to shoot her down, and unfortunately they are some of the same people who have happily chatted with her in the past, as long as she kept her mouth shut about the sexism.

But, am I setting a good example for your son and daughter? Maybe not. Maybe the more pushback I get now, the less they may have in the future. It's a tough world. Thanks to those of you who have been supportive in this thread.

Thanks! I’m pretty proud of them both.

I’ve participated in lots of these conversations in lots of different settings over time. I think I’ve seen almost every one of the examples you listed defended to the death by men. I’ve seen this pattern so many times, that I’m convinced that there is no acceptable way for a woman to point out examples of sexism. The only acceptable thing for a woman to do when she observes sexist speech or behavior is to keep her mouth shut.

It’s what allows sexist BS to persist in our society. If one understands the concept of privilege, then it means men can’t see it, at least without conscious effort. So the only way to get rid of the BS is for women to point it out. But that triggers a defense mechanism in many men that insures that the BS persists. The end result is almost always the same: the man is perfectly reasonable and the woman is having her period.

One of the things that really hit home in the Path biography was a diary entry that talked about a spelling bee or similar competition. She came in second. She wrote that she was happy that a boy won because she always likes to have a boy finish ahead of her.

She was in elementary school.

Those kinds of attitudes don’t go away quickly or painlessly. We have all kinds of speech and thought patterns that are relics of a time when women were treated as property and it was legal for a man to rape his wife. That doesn’t mean men are evil. But it does mean that getting rid of harmful BS takes effort. Especially when it’s hard to spot one’s own BS.

ETA: I don’t the answer to how hard to push. I’m not the one who has to put up with the crap, so I’m not in a position to pass judgment, especially when I see someone trying to navigate a near no-win situation. I’ll do my best to prepare my son and daughter for a tough world, and they’ll see how they do.

[Some Schmo]

But that triggers a defense mechanism in many men that insures that the BS persists.

So, in the scenario when a woman falsely accuses a man of being a sexist, the proper course of action for the accused is to pretend it's true? It's important to maintain that BS so this other BS doesn't persist?

Why don't we just get rid of all the BS? How about that idea?

I mean, you're basically saying that a woman just has to utter the word "sexist" and men should shut the “F” up, no matter what the truth is. This is what you think? You have no regard for balance or what's actually real?

[Lem]

Since we are apparently into a another round of this, it seems appropriate to quote another post:

Schmo,

By the time you entered the conversation, Lem and Analytics had resolved their differences and exchanged apologies. Why did you feel the need to defend Analytics?

It’s what men do in conversations about sexism. They make it about the men. They will endlessly dissect the remark in question to assure each other that it’s okay because the guy who made the remark didn’t mean to be sexist. And that’s how sexist language persists.

I don’t think it’s impossible to see your own privilege, but I’d agree it’s hard. Isn’t the lesson there to listen when someone points it out to you?

[Analytics]

Sometimes I wonder if my policy here of calling out only the absolutely most egregious sexist expressions is helping anyone. I comment on maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 times I see it happen, and the times I don't it's because I am trying to avoid just what is happening in this thread from a few- the name calling, the condescending and abusive language, the demeaning assumption (invariably) that I "see sexism everywhere."

It's demoralizing to realize that when a woman stands up for herself, there are still plenty of people ready to shoot her down, and unfortunately they are some of the same people who have happily chatted with her in the past, as long as she kept her mouth shut about the sexism.

So, referring to full-time missionaries as “full-time missionaries” is one of “the absolutely most egregious sexist expressions” you are subjected to here. I should know better than to use such language. For every one time you stand up for yourself by telling me how irritated you are by such offensive language, there are multiple other offensive things I and others say that you graciously don’t mention.

Should you continue this policy of biting your tongue? My vote is no! By all means, call out all of the offensiveness you see, both big and small. Let us know why you really think.

[Analytics]

I would suggest that you avoid responding to a woman with “are you on your period?” when you actually mean “does that make sense?” and you’ll do just fine.

How so? You accused me of sexism a few years ago for asking “does that make sense?” How can I possibly think asking that question is now fine?

[Res Ipsa]

But that triggers a defense mechanism in many men that insures that the BS persists.

So, in the scenario when a woman falsely accuses a man of being a sexist, the proper course of action for the accused is to pretend it's true? It's important to maintain that B.S. so this other B.S. doesn't persist?

Why don't we just get rid of all the B.S.? How about that idea?

I mean, you're basically saying that a woman just has to utter the word "sexist" and men should shut the “F” up, no matter what the truth is. This is what you think? You have no regard for balance or what's actually real?

That's a really good illustration of the defense mechanism at work. I didn't say or imply any of those things. But rather than address what I actually said, you flipped out and then became outraged over the conclusions you jumped to. I made a comment about a defense mechanism I've seen many times in action, and you went straight to men should just shut the “F” up. It's a straw man built to feed outrage. That's the mechanism.

And look how well it works! You get to tell at least two, maybe now three, people to “F” off and you never have to think about what they are saying.

[Some Schmo]

It’s what men do in conversations about sexism. They make it about the men. They will endlessly dissect the remark in question to assure each other that it’s okay because the guy who made the remark didn’t mean to be sexist. And that’s how sexist language persists.

While I agree this may be generally true, there are exceptions, and to believe otherwise is to have your head up your ass. It's toxic, because it's a new kind of dogma.

[Some Schmo]

That's a really good illustration of the defense mechanism at work. I didn't say or imply any of those things. But rather than address what I actually said, you flipped out and then became outraged over the conclusions you jumped to. I made a comment about a defense mechanism I've seen many times in action, and you went straight to men should just shut the “F” up. It's a straw man built to feed outrage. That's the mechanism.

And look how well it works! You get to tell at least two, maybe now three, people to “F” off and you never have to think about what they are saying.

This is absolute BS, RI. I'm disappointed you're not being more discerning. You've bought into an arbitrary rule and now you can't see around it.

And please save the "you don't have to think about it" crap. It's just as easy for me to say you haven't listened to a word I've said either. You can cop out all you want and not listen to me because I disagree with your BS generalization, but it's as transparent as hell.

[Lem]

Sometimes I wonder if my policy here of calling out only the absolutely most egregious sexist expressions is helping anyone. I comment on maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 times I see it happen, and the times I don't it's because I am trying to avoid just what is happening in this thread from a few- the name calling, the condescending and abusive language, the demeaning assumption (invariably) that I "see sexism everywhere."

It's demoralizing to realize that when a woman stands up for herself, there are still plenty of people ready to shoot her down, and unfortunately they are some of the same people who have happily chatted with her in the past, as long as she kept her mouth shut about the sexism.

So, referring to full-time missionaries as “full-time missionaries” is one of “the absolutely most egregious sexist expressions” you are subjected to here. I should know better than to use such language. For every one time you stand up for yourself by telling me how irritated you are by such offensive language, there are multiple other offensive things I and others say that you graciously don’t mention.

Should you continue this policy of biting your tongue? My vote is no! By all means, call out all of the offensiveness you see, both big and small. Let us know why you really think.

This started when I disagreed with your assessment of what “full-time missionaries” meant. The “egregious expression” I was referring to was when you responded with:


“Your thinking is cloudy. Are you on your period?”

Hence the title of this thread.

[Lem]

I would suggest that you avoid responding to a woman with “are you on your period?” when you actually mean “does that make sense?” and you’ll do just fine.

How so? You accused me of sexism a few years ago for asking “does that make sense?” How can I possibly think asking that question is now fine?

Oh my. I wasn't going to bring this up, but since you did, are you referring to the time when I was participating in a thread that contained statistical analysis, and you, multiple times, would give a statistical response, then stop, refer to me specifically as a female, and then give a simplified (dumbed down) version, followed by asking me, the female you thought could not POSSIBLY understand your mathematical analysis, the question:

“Does that make sense?”


Do you honestly not understand the difference between THAT, and me suggesting “does that make sense?” Is better than “Are you on your period?”


(By the way, when you were condescending to the lone female on the thread, you were speaking to a professor who specializes in economic policy and statistical analysis. The math you were “explaining” to me was what I teach, in my graduate classes.)