Arizona 1070

[_Redefined]

I'll slam Mexico. It's not a safe place.

Actually, I think it depends on where you go. . . AND if you are Mexican or not. . . or at least are able to blend in. I'm sure it's most unsafe for white Americans. "Nana" lives there alone in her tiny little home and feels very safe. My inlaws bought land there and want to retire there. Of course this is all a perfectly sane idea to them because they are hispanic. . and yes second-generation US citizens. . . as legal as you or I. This law potentially discriminates against them based solely on what they look like. It is racist.

[_Redefined]

She does not appear to be illegal to me, although I would like to do illegal things with her.

LOL, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would be Darth. . . oh, and I don't think I want to know either!

[_Darth J]

Ah yes. ACLU supporter Darth J knows how convoluted Bolton's reasoning was in twisting the legal framework established around that clause so his weary and conscience-seared brain makes a half-hearted swipe in hopes no one will notice his lack of substance.

Everything is much simpler when you assume that all issues are either hard right conservatives or far left liberals, isn't it, bc? Those are the only alternatives, after all.

While your Droopy-esque Manichean political mind is working on how to explain why my feeling that the Arizona law violates federalism must mean that I'm a flaming liberal, here are some conservatives who oppose that law:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36469.html

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggl ... n-law.html

http://www.Facebook.com/pages/Conservat ... 6724551350

And please give me a single example of where I have ever supported the ACLU. I mean, where I have said in this thread that I oppose registration of firearms and a national ID, clearly I must be a leftist.

EDIT: Here's another damning leftist statement by me in this very thread:

You would agree with me that the whole premise of the Constitution is a government with limited, specified powers, wouldn't you?

[_Willy Law]

Besides, illegals provide more for this economy than they drain. Virtually every study on the matter has shown this to be true. .

Kevin can you point me to one of these studies? I thought I came up with this all on my own the other day, have not researched it though.
I employ almost 100 people. I would guess that at least 30 of them are here illegally. All I am required to do is photocopy their SS card and a picture ID. Both of which can be purchased on the street of any major city for about $100.
So these 30 people work for me and have their payroll taxes (Fica, social security, medicare) taken out of their checks just like any other worker. Difference is come tax return time they do not file so they do not get back the FICA overpay based on their wage (most would receive a full refund). They also do not file for social security benefits or Medicare benefits. All those funds stay in the system. Now I am interested in seeing the studies Kevin is referring to, but all those funds plus the influx of money they bring to the local economy has to be greater than the drain on the local government and schools.

[_Darth J]

@bcspace

This board is literally dripping with my leftist agenda and support of Obama and his statist agenda. Good, call, bc!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13897

I received a cripplingly expensive and probably unconstitutional national health plan out of my hat!

[_Darth J]

Besides, illegals provide more for this economy than they drain. Virtually every study on the matter has shown this to be true. .

Kevin can you point me to one of these studies? I thought I came up with this all on my own the other day, have not researched it though.
I employ almost 100 people. I would guess that at least 30 of them are here illegally. All I am required to do is photocopy their SS card and a picture ID. Both of which can be purchased on the street of any major city for about $100.
So these 30 people work for me and have their payroll taxes (Fica, social security, medicare) taken out of their checks just like any other worker. Difference is come tax return time they do not file so they do not get back the FICA overpay based on their wage (most would receive a full refund). They also do not file for social security benefits or Medicare benefits. All those funds stay in the system. Now I am interested in seeing the studies Kevin is referring to, but all those funds plus the influx of money they bring to the local economy has to be greater than the drain on the local government and schools.

Kevin talked about this somewhere on another thread, but I'm not clear about this claim, either. Illegal immigrants do make a contribution to the United States' economy, but I'm not sure how this is a net plus to the economy, for the reasons you're talking about.

[_Brackite]

The judge is out of bounds. I hope the state immediately appeals.

Making an illegal immigrant illegal is not allowed? How stupid is that?

JMS

If you are upset about this ruling, the Judge is Not the Person to blame for this. Blame the Obama Administration for bringing this lawsuit against the State of Arizona. The Judge pretty much had to go with the ruling that she did earlier today. Back in 2000, she was recommended by U.S. Senator Jon Kyl of Arizona, a Conservative Republican, for the Federal bench.

[_Markk]

If they are found guilty. People arrested are presumed innocent until proven guilty, which means they can remain silent, according to the constitution.

You didn’t address the question. Are you saying that while the government can ask me if I am a legal citizen when I apply for a State drivers license or other government privileges or alike, it is okay with them to ask me if I am a citizen but it is not Okay for a law enforcement officer to ask a person that is suspected of committing a crime if they are a US citizen?

You wrote: “ I had no problem questioning those who were arrested for crimes after due process,…”

Explain what you meant by this? It’s okay only if they are found guilty, but not if they are found innocent? Is that your opinion?

The same way it has always been enforced. Most people deported were caught working with illegal social security cards, and arrested on their job site.

CFR? I would like to see that study. Are you saying the federal government has a “team” that goes around hunting down people who use bogus SS cards and they go to the place of employment and arrest them due to this investigation? Again I would like to see that study? I heard on a radio station today, don’t know if it is true or not, that sheriff Joes county deports almost a ¼ of all illegal immigrants in the US, and I doubt it is by SS card investigations

Someone appearing out of the desert coming from across the country's border? Are you serious?

Very serious, it’s a simple question, does a border patrol agent, who’s job is it to protect our borders and keep people coming into our country illegally, to question people whether or not they are illegal or not. I used the desert as a example in that the federal government puts signs out for American citizens to stay out of certain border areas because of illegal drug and people trafficking and ‘coyote’ trails for the smuggling of? So does a agent have the right to ask those who they suspect are here illegally if they are citizens and ask for proof of? If you would like use the example of a boat off the coast of Florida full of suspected Cuban refugees? Or a bunch of white guys in a North Dakota forest next to the Canadian border drinking a Molsens…point being does the federal government have the right to ask a person whether or not they are illegal or not if they suspect the person is?

Hey, I'm not stupid enough to think police officers are anything more than human, void of human biases. In fact, I can show you dozens of youtube clips where police officers are shown to be some of the most rabid racists on the planet. Just last week here in Georgia a police officer arrived to the home of a black woman who called about an outside burglar, and they ended up tasing and beating the woman who called them! The video footage was shocking and the men were immediately fired.

But taken as a whole, the police force in Arizona is AGAINST this law, and they do NOT want to be burdened with the responsibility of being INS agents. And why would they? Rising immigration corresponds to lower crime rates, and every argument supporting the hysteria about illegals in Arizona turn out to be baseless, which leaves only racism as the explanation for their fury. I proved this in a previous thread where you refused to account for the mountain of evidence that worked against your arguments about how illegalls were a burden on the economy.

Ist, you didn’t prove anything of the kind, infact your math didn’t support your theory. Your math demanded that every illegal immigrant, man women and child, pays 10k a year in fed income taxes. And, you did not venture into testing your cf’s as I asked repeatedly to do…the offer still stands.

I personally have more faith in our law enforcement and believe the bad ones are in the far minority, but I guess that's a choice. Whether or not the officers agree with this or not is irrelevant, you could use the same logic for many laws, but at any rate I would like to see the percentages for and against this by Arizona police with the reason why they are against it…CFR please, google it and couldn’t find a break down. I know a police officer who is very close to me and he feels that it is not a good idea in that the feds will not back them up and it is just a waste of time…so I understand your point, but it also goes much deeper as to “why” officer fell the way they do about illegal immigration.

Irrelevant. What child molestors do is also illegal, but I wouldn't support a law that allowed police officers to arrest people in the streets for pedophilia, simply because that person looks like he could be one, and that person doesn't have documentation proving he isn't a pedophile. What a dumb law that would be right? But you don't see it that way because you know you're immune from this law since nobody could dare mistake you for an illegal immigrant.

What part of the law says that Kevin…cfr…Lets be objective here? If the law states what you claim, then I am with you 100%, show me where the law says that.

[_Kevin Graham]

If you are upset about this ruling, the Judge is Not the Person to blame for this. Blame the Obama Administration for bringing this lawsuit against the State of Arizona.

No, you can blame the constitution. The Justice Dept had no choice but to bring a suit against it because it is so obviously unconstitutional. Like I said before, conservative pundits agree so this isn't a matter of Liberal politics, it is a constitutional matter and only those most ignorant of the constitution (Liberal or Conservative) are complaining about the suit.

Period.

[_Kevin Graham]

You asked for evidence for studies, here they are:

http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/ki/rep ... anicStudy/

[In North Carolina] Hispanics annually contribute about $756 million in taxes (direct and indirect) while costing the state budget about $817 million annually for K-12 education ($467 million), health care ($299 million) and corrections ($51 million) — for a net cost to the state of about $61 million, or $102 per Hispanic resident.
"The net cost to the state budget must be seen in the broader context of the aggregate benefits Hispanics bring to the state's economy," researchers said. "Above and beyond their direct and indirect impacts on North Carolina business revenues, Hispanic workers contribute immensely to the state's economic output and cost competitiveness in a number of key industries." For example, without Hispanic participation in the construction industry, economic output of this important sector would be significantly lower and annual labor costs nearly $1 billion higher.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/05/14/why- ... onomy.html

"At the heart of the debate over illegal immigration lies one key question: are immigrants good or bad for the economy? The American public overwhelmingly thinks they’re bad. In a recent New York Times/CBS News poll, 74 percent of respondents said illegal immigrants weakened the economy, compared to only 17 percent who said they strengthened it. Yet the consensus among most economists is that immigration, both legal and illegal, provides a small net boost to the economy. Immigrants provide cheap labor, lower the prices of everything from produce to new homes, and leave consumers with a little more money in their pockets."

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/sites/ ... ration.pdf

Immigrants in California pay roughly $30 billion in federal taxes, $5.2 billion in state income taxes, and $4.6 billion in sales taxes each year. In California, “the average immigrant-headed household contributes a net $2,679 annually to Social Security, which is $539 more than the average US-born household.”

If all unauthorized immigrants were removed from California, the state would lose $164.2 billion in expenditures, $72.9 billion in economic output, and approximately 717,000 jobs, even accounting for adequate market adjustment time, according to a report by the Perryman Group.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... grant.html

California could reap an economic boon worth $16 billion by legalizing its 1.8 million undocumented adult Latino immigrants, according to a USC study released today.

http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2010-02-01 ... ws-article

The Fiscal Policy Institute examined the country’s 25 largest metropolitan areas...“It shows that immigrants are really pulling their own weight.”

So if you want to get rid of illegals, then you're going to have to come up with something better than this lame excuse about economic drain, because the facts say otherwise.