We should embrace the death of Democracy

[canpakes]

CP, You are missing the point. We (Americans) do not owe folks from other countries a right to be here, it is a privilege.

It’s more of a dodge than a relevant point to proclaim that citizenship is ‘a privilege’, given how it’s conferred and the fact that every country has requirements of some sort.

It takes years to become a citizen because we need to vet them and make sure they will be productive contributors. And in the long run I doubt it would be cheaper if the folks coming in are a burden to the system/s.

Our own system seems dysfunctional if we don’t play by our own rules. If the law states that folks can apply after a 5-year period, but then they wait for two to four times longer before being granted that chance, then we should review and/or adjust the system to allow those people who are following the process to be given the chance that we say we are providing.

As for ‘productivity’ - you have a habit of implying that an illegal immigrant cannot be productive. Your own experience disproves this, given who you’ve hired and kept on since. In and of itself, productivity is not a quality that only citizens can display, especially considering how many actual citizens are also receiving aid or are unemployed.

We have no idea who came in our country over the past 4 years. Are you okay with just giving folks a blanket citizenship with out vetting and waiting in line?

Vetting is fine. However, I don’t see any usefulness in creating a line for the sake of there being a line, especially a 10 to 20 year long line, for applicants who can be (as you put it and have experienced) quite productive.

Keep in mind that some vetting does occur immediately at the point of entry even for those releases with future court dates.

My yes or no answer is no, I am not okay with it. What is yours? We can move forward from there.

Are you saying that you’d be against a significant increase in judges and staffing to enable the system we claim to have to operate more functionally? Because that’s what I’m asking.

[Moksha]

Are there any provisions in the Project 2025 blueprints for franchising the Soylent Green factory of Linden, Utah to help take care of both the migrant and the elderly problem and boost productivity? If not, Elon Musk's DOGE team will think of it.

[Dwight]

Myself, working with and managing undocumented and permitted (work visas and green card) immigrants every day can tell you a large percentage of people who live here, believe California is the property of Mexico, that we stole it from them.... and in no way understand the politics and BS that the Newsweek article suggests. It is a really a joke.

I honestly do not understand how people get away writing what they do, and that people buy into it.

I am reading a Ulysses S. Grant biography and he thought the Mexican-American War was unjust bullying of a bigger country provoking a smaller country to get their land. Maybe they are well read to know what a man who fought in the war and later became president of the US thought about it over 150 years ago.

Study after study shows illegal immigrants are a net boon for the economy. They aren't living off the government, they almost always pay in more than they take or use. They can't even access federal programs, except incidentally as the guardians/parents of offspring born here that have birthright citizenship. It is something like 4-6% more money for just high school graduates by having them part of the local economy. Which isn't to say just open the borders, but maybe they aren't the cause of all of society's ills that are laid at their feet. I'd personally say lets focus on the problems, the lawbreakers, and maybe when we got them we can focus on the guy just doing work that sometimes there isn't enough money in the world to get an American to do.

[Markk]

Myself, working with and managing undocumented and permitted (work visas and green card) immigrants every day can tell you a large percentage of people who live here, believe California is the property of Mexico, that we stole it from them.... and in no way understand the politics and BS that the Newsweek article suggests. It is a really a joke.

I honestly do not understand how people get away writing what they do, and that people buy into it.

I am reading a Ulysses S. Grant biography and he thought the Mexican-American War was unjust bullying of a bigger country provoking a smaller country to get their land. Maybe they are well read to know what a man who fought in the war and later became president of the US thought about it over 150 years ago.

Every single country is conquered territory at some point or another. We are a world of tribes that take and conquer. Spain butchered the natives in Mexico and stole their lands.

They can't even access federal programs, except incidentally as the guardians/parents of offspring born here that have birthright citizenship. It is something like 4-6% more money for just high school graduates by having them part of the local economy.

I disagree....as an example https://www.nilc.org/resources/table_ovrw_fedprogs/

It is something like 4-6% more money for just high school graduates by having them part of the local economy.

You just asserted that illegal immigrants can't access federal programs, yet you concede here that they are allowed to attend public schools in which the federal government provides well over a 100 billion dollars a year to, or about $2500 per student. School K-12 are partly Federal programs, with a Cabinet position and a office and bureaucracy behind it. This does not include state and local burdens of another 14k per student. that is around 16K per student per year x 4= 64k.

You can do a google search and find a study to support just about any position you want. If what you say is true, by are cities with heavy populations of illegal immigrants impoverished?

Why are places like San Francisco declining? Why are states like NY and Mass. declining illegals, if they are such a benefit?

Where do yo live, just curious?

[Dwight]

Those are programs legal immigrants can access not illegal ones. Also even if illegal immigrant children are attending school those are mostly paid with property, sales, and income taxes, things that all or the vast majority of illegal immigrants pay. They may pay the property taxes indirectly due to renting, but it isn’t like their landlord gets to say “oh that apartment has illegals so I will not pay property tax on it.” Same with income, while there definitely is under the table, I am betting your work pays income taxes for the illegals on the numbers provided even if it might not be theirs, cause companies don’t want to get the IRS on them.

I live in Sweden currently, and due to Covid I haven’t been to California since 2019, but in the 17 years before that I would be there at least one week up to 30ish days of the year, Southern California more in the beginning and San Francisco more later. I also wasn’t just in tourist spots. I have good friends in San Francisco that I keep in regular contact with that are either native or have lived there for over 20 years.

[Markk]

Those are programs legal immigrants can access not illegal ones. Also even if illegal immigrant children are attending school those are mostly paid with property, sales, and income taxes, things that all or the vast majority of illegal immigrants pay. They may pay the property taxes indirectly due to renting, but it isn’t like their landlord gets to say “oh that apartment has illegals so I will not pay property tax on it.” Same with income, while there definitely is under the table, I am betting your work pays income taxes for the illegals on the numbers provided even if it might not be theirs, cause companies don’t want to get the IRS on them.

I live in Sweden currently, and due to Covid I haven’t been to California since 2019, but in the 17 years before that I would be there at least one week up to 30ish days of the year, Southern California more in the beginning and San Francisco more later. I also wasn’t just in tourist spots. I have good friends in San Francisco that I keep in regular contact with that are either native or have lived there for over 20 years.

Not true at all, some are some are not....re-read and read the table. And any class of immigration status can attend public schools, which is in part federally funded.

Also good luck in defining what a "lawfully Present Immigrant" means. Who is vetting what they say and who is keeping them from being coached by immigration lawyers?

How much income tax does a person making 40 k a year pay? They pay sales tax when the buy outside the black markets, or without a EBT card. You do understand that Illegal parents that have legal children here because they were born here, can apply for SNAP benefits. Property owners pay taxes whether a person is legal or not. That argument is just silly. They would be paying the same tax if the home sat empty.

I gather you have vacationed in So Cal. for a few weeks each year, 5 years ago, but never actually lived or worked here.

If illegal immigrants grow the economy by 2-4% or more....why are sanctuary cities struggling and burdened, force to even put them into motels? Maybe we can send a few million uneducated immigrants to Sweden and they can grow their GDP by 4 %...right?

[canpakes]

.
Hey, Markk - I know that response was for Dwight, but I’m an opinionated bonehead , so I’ll leave this behind:

Not true at all, some are some are not....re-read and read the table. And any class of immigration status can attend public schools, which is in part federally funded.

Federal funding accounts for around 8% of school budgets nationwide, with those dollars usually serving the needs of disabled kids. No worries, though, as Trump has vowed to eliminate the Department of Education as soon as he steps into office, so these dollars need not be a talking point any more in this conversation about immigrants.

So schools will continue to be funded as Dwight has explained, thus are supported by illegal immigrants as well as legal citizens, through that portion of their rent that accounts for the landlord’s property taxes.

Also good luck in defining what a "lawfully Present Immigrant" means. Who is vetting what they say and who is keeping them from being coached by immigration lawyers?

A LPR is typically a green card holder. That would be the vetting you want. There are some other folks who can receive aid per the page at the link below, from the excellent source that you linked to earlier:

https://www.nilc.org/resources/overview ... dprograms/

How much income tax does a person making 40 k a year pay?

Not much. Have you reviewed the most recent tax tables?

They pay sales tax when they buy outside the black markets, or without a EBT card. You do understand that Illegal parents that have legal children here because they were born here, can apply for SNAP benefits.

Given that illegal immigrants buy goods and services from the same vendors you do, they’ll be paying the same taxes you would for those items. I don’t think that there’s a network of black market Walmarts, gas stations and Smiths grocery stores. Even if there was, it would need to rely on established infrastructure.

Property owners pay taxes whether a person is legal or not. That argument is just silly. They would be paying the same tax if the home sat empty.

If a landlord has tenants - be they legal, illegal or extraterrestrial - then the landlord’s property tax is being covered as a portion of the rent payment. That’s how landlords set their rental rates. You can be sure that they will not graciously calculate rent without covering all of their expenses. Property tax is an expense for them. Far from being a ‘silly’ point, it’s a simple fact that if an immigrant lives in any place that requires rent, then that immigrant is paying property tax as a portion of their rent payment.

If illegal immigrants grow the economy by 2-4% or more....why are sanctuary cities struggling and burdened, force to even put them into motels? Maybe we can send a few million uneducated immigrants to Sweden and they can grow their GDP by 4 %...right?

Cities have unique problems regardless of their legal/illegal citizen ratio. Perhaps it would be more relevant to look at poverty rates at a slightly more comprehensive scale, such as counties:



Aside from areas of predominantly Native American reservation lands like AZ’s Navajo and Apache counties (where shocking poverty has been in place for many decades), I see a large amount of red poverty zones in the politically-red, immigrant-unfriendly mid-south and Appalachia, which isn’t harboring any sanctuary city network that I’m aware of. Why would that be?

I think that you can agree that immigration can be beneficial to growth and wealth depending on your own position within the market. You and your business have absolutely benefited. Your income is dependent upon the availability of immigrant labor. Their productivity directly affects and contributes to your wealth.

[Markk]

.
Hey, Markk - I know that response was for Dwight, but I’m an opinionated bonehead , so I’ll leave this behind:

Not true at all, some are some are not....re-read and read the table. And any class of immigration status can attend public schools, which is in part federally funded.

Federal funding accounts for around 8% of school budgets nationwide, with those dollars usually serving the needs of disabled kids. No worries, though, as Trump has vowed to eliminate the Department of Education as soon as he steps into office, so these dollars need not be a talking point any more in this conversation about immigrants.

So schools will continue to be funded as Dwight has explained, thus are supported by illegal immigrants as well as legal citizens, through that portion of their rent that accounts for the landlord’s property taxes.

Also good luck in defining what a "lawfully Present Immigrant" means. Who is vetting what they say and who is keeping them from being coached by immigration lawyers?

A LPR is typically a green card holder. That would be the vetting you want. There are some other folks who can receive aid per the page at the link below, from the excellent source that you linked to earlier:

https://www.nilc.org/resources/overview ... dprograms/

How much income tax does a person making 40 k a year pay?

Not much. Have you reviewed the most recent tax tables?

They pay sales tax when they buy outside the black markets, or without a EBT card. You do understand that Illegal parents that have legal children here because they were born here, can apply for SNAP benefits.

Given that illegal immigrants buy goods and services from the same vendors you do, they’ll be paying the same taxes you would for those items. I don’t think that there’s a network of black market Walmarts, gas stations and Smiths grocery stores. Even if there was, it would need to rely on established infrastructure.

Property owners pay taxes whether a person is legal or not. That argument is just silly. They would be paying the same tax if the home sat empty.

If a landlord has tenants - be they legal, illegal or extraterrestrial - then the landlord’s property tax is being covered as a portion of the rent payment. That’s how landlords set their rental rates. You can be sure that they will not graciously calculate rent without covering all of their expenses. Property tax is an expense for them. Far from being a ‘silly’ point, it’s a simple fact that if an immigrant lives in any place that requires rent, then that immigrant is paying property tax as a portion of their rent payment.

If illegal immigrants grow the economy by 2-4% or more....why are sanctuary cities struggling and burdened, force to even put them into motels? Maybe we can send a few million uneducated immigrants to Sweden and they can grow their GDP by 4 %...right?

Cities have unique problems regardless of their legal/illegal citizen ratio. Perhaps it would be more relevant to look at poverty rates at a slightly more comprehensive scale, such as counties:



Aside from areas of predominantly Native American reservation lands like AZ’s Navajo and Apache counties (where shocking poverty has been in place for many decades), I see a large amount of red poverty zones in the politically-red, immigrant-unfriendly mid-south and Appalachia, which isn’t harboring any sanctuary city network that I’m aware of. Why would that be?

I think that you can agree that immigration can be beneficial to growth and wealth depending on your own position within the market. You and your business have absolutely benefited. Your income is dependent upon the availability of immigrant labor. Their productivity directly affects and contributes to your wealth.

These are all fair questions and I will answer them the best I can, but first....San Clemente or Dana Point and what years. I am okay with a conversation, but I am not really interested in 20 questions. Is that Fair?

[canpakes]

These are all fair questions and I will answer them the best I can, but first....San Clemente or Dana Point and what years. I am okay with a conversation, but I am not really interested in 20 questions. Is that Fair?

lol. How about 19 questions?

No worries, Markk. Sometimes a lengthy post brings up a good number of follow-up questions; you are under no requirement to entertain all or any of them.
: )

As for location, I’ll only say that you may be quite close. I tend to be pretty private with more precise details for family reasons.

[Markk]

These are all fair questions and I will answer them the best I can, but first....San Clemente or Dana Point and what years. I am okay with a conversation, but I am not really interested in 20 questions. Is that Fair?

lol. How about 19 questions?

No worries, Markk. Sometimes a lengthy post brings up a good number of follow-up questions; you are under no requirement to entertain all or any of them.
: )

As for location, I’ll only say that you may be quite close. I tend to be pretty private with more precise details for family reasons.

Come on CP....you said it was years ago...Laguna? and when.