Bigotry against the CoJCoLDS?

[_Who Knows]

As for how I define bigotry, see my article by clicking here.

Here fishy fishy...

[_wenglund]

As for how I define bigotry, see my article by clicking here.

Here fishy fishy...

Were that my objective (it isn't), then if one is not a fish, then one should not fear being caught.


And, since I am letting each of YOU do the "fishing", and if YOU happen to get "caught" as you suppose, it will be in the "net" of YOUR OWN making. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Nomomo]

Gee, all of that protesting from a simple, unassuming question.

I think you're here with an agenda. That's not meant as a criticism, Wade. Many agendas are okay in my book, but I do look at your posts and try to understand your agenda. For that reason, your "simple, unassuming questions" sound loaded to me and I respond sometimes with my instruction to you about the loaded questions (arrogantly doing so, whether you want it or not) and my opinions.

But, I do appreciate your responding.

You're welcome.

As for how I define bigotry, see my article by clicking here.

Thanks. That helped me to understand some of your views on bigotry as well as get a little vision of your agenda.

When I read this, "...toxic attitudes and behaviors manifest towards a group based primarily on membership in that group" I tried to imagine whether I can detect those attitudes in myself. Since I have friends and families in the Church and I love them and enjoy being with them, I don't think I manifest toxic behaviors because they are in the LDS group and I'm not. I live in a neighborhood in South Jordan and have great neighbors. They're going to put up another new Chapel down at the end of the street which will mean more traffic than I would like, but I didn't race down to city hall to oppose it and I won't paintball members as they go to church. (I did think about asking them to get a liquor license and put a bar in one of the Sunday School classrooms...but I didn't.)

As I was fasting, praying and pondering the question of my own bigotry in my heart, I realized that I felt the hint of an unspoken assumption in your definition. The unspoken assumption is critical -- no, VITAL -- to understanding your definition and accepting or rejecting it. In fact, understanding whether there really is an unspoken assumption in your definition is vital to anyone who wants to engage you in this dicussion. It's whether the recipients of religious bigotry are wearing the much prophesied Mantle of Persecution. I was taught from my very youth in the Church that it's a heritage. I read about it in Mormon Doctrine and in the Bible. You know: "Persecution is the heritage of the faithful."

The reason that assumption is so vital is because it presumes bigotry and thereby persecution as a natural cross the faithful must bear. So you expect it and you find it confirmed in the people who post against the Church's history and teachings here and on RfM and FAIR.

Here's an example (lotsa blah-blahs follow).

Let's say I'm a doorman at a hotel and you arrive in an expensive Limo. I step up and open the door to welcome you to the hotel. I'm hoping for a nice tip from the rich guy in the Limo. I notice you're wearing a black missionary badge that says "CoJCoLDS". (It could happen!)

If I'm the bigot you describe in your definition and I hold whatever prejudices about Mormons that I might "based primarily on membership in that group" then I might angrily slam the door on you because you're a Mormon!

But, if I'm indifferent to Mormons, then I will try to be nice, suck up and hope for a big tip from the rich missionary in the car.

Now let's now say that I'm the guy who's indifferent about your Mormonism and as you get out of the car you begin asking me the Golden Questions; you start telling me about prophets and forever families; you start asking me if I love my wife and children and want to be with them FOREVER; you ask persistently, but VERY NICELY, for my name and address; you give me a FREE Book of Mormon; you call me up and ask me if you can come by sometime -- remember? Families are Forever?; I acquiesce; you then proceed to tell me, my wife and kids half-truths about the history of the Church and the Book of Mormon; I have to research this stuff all by myself to find out; you challenge us for baptism; you convert my wife and kids; then she starts hounding me to coming to church; the Bishop encourages us to give money; we're constantly told that we won't be a ForeverFamily unless we follow Joseph's teachings; it makes my life a living hell; she screams at me because I won't pay a full tithing and join the church so we can get a temple recommend. We get a divorce because I can't take her and the kids to the temple.

Now that second guy is now just a little put-off by the Church because he blames it for alimony, child-support and a ruined marriage -- and NOW you stop back in to the hotel...and he says, "You're a Mormon?" and slams the door on your leg.

Do you see that you're trying to set us up? I do.

You translate the betrayal many of us feel into your definition of bigotry. You seem to think it's like racial bigotry -- something taught that casts people into a class so that anyone in that class can be labeled and discriminated against. But it's mostly not.

I kind of doubt that anti-Mormons exist. I do consider myself anti-Mormonism, to some extent, because I think it exercises a lot of power over people and isn't very honest with them about a variety of things. I am willing to give credit where it is due...but my experience is that the information coming out of 50 East North Temple is intentionally only half the story.

My experience is also that I was not given the whole story during my upbringing. I think if I don't get all the truth from a Church that calls itself "...the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth" then I'm getting lies from them. I think that these half-truths/lies were fed to me by my parents who were ignorant of the lies. That I followed the admonition not to research Church history from non-LDS sources and that I gave a lot of years to a system of questionable origins and motives kind of annoys me.

After all that, I probably won't slam the door on your leg when you get out of the car, but if you put your religion in the unsuspecting faces of the world and then chide me because I can "leave the Church and not leave it alone" -- I might just call "b***s***".

So, I think you are pretending some innocence so that you can set a trap. I think I'm clever and I'm just saying so.

[_Southern Redneck]

I went to your link page and you defined it as such.

here is ABI’s definition of bigot/bigotry:
toxic attitudes and behaviors manifest towards a group based primarily on membership in that group.

Now 'toxic' can be misused as much as the webster's definition that you said was 'inadequate' on the linked page.

Outisde of that your definition is good.

Now back to the original question

quote=Wade
I am just curious to see whether any of the participant here (particularly Polygamy Porter, MormonMendacity, Scratch, and Tal Bachman) consider themselves to be bigotted against the CoJCoLDS?

I can pretty much say no because of a basic flaw in your definition. You define 'bigot' as hating a group based primarily on membership.

As far as I know few exmo's and postmo's have achieved that position because they hated the members, as much as the doctrine or leadership of the LDS church. Now the churches leadership are members, but they are not to be counted as members because they have placed themselves above the regular masses.

There likely is a small minority of exmo's that have become anti because of the membership.

I just don't see it here.

Here, the issues of doctrine, abuse of leadership, and the lack of truth of the church seem the primarily reason others have left and are here.

Am I a bigot? No. I simply know the church is not true.

I also do not see this wade version of bigotry here either.

[_wenglund]

Okay, several of you have voiced criticism of my definition, and I value that.

However, rather than addressing the criticism directly at this time (I will a bit later), let me just ask all of you: "Do you think it is possible to be bigotted against the CoJCoLDS? And, if so, what would it look like?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mercury]

I am just curious to see whether any of the participant here (particularly Polygamy Porter, MormonMendacity, Scratch, and Tal Bachman) consider themselves to be bigotted against the CoJCoLDS?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I consider you to be a bigot towards individuals who disagree with you.

[_Mercury]

It could probably be just as easily argued that the CoJCoLDS is bigoted against them.

I am willing to take up that argument as soon as I have satisfied my curiosity on this one. Will you be sticking around to posit the argument above?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Here we see the species "Mormonus assininus" in his natural habitat, misdirection. The clumsy and pathetic actions taken by the specimen indicate he was the runt, likely having to wait at his mothers teat while the bigger, healthier Assininus' had their fill.

The tactic employed in the above example shows assininus' futile attempt at misdireection, a.k.a. the "only on my terms" response to clarification. Assininus, after using this tactic will then again ask the initial question, in this case the "bigot" strawman question.

The cycle will repeat until wade is called a tool and repeatedly made fun of by everyone. Thus we see the lifecycle of Assininus going from humiliation to humiliation even while being totally unaware of his mental shortcomings.

[_Polygamy Porter]

It could probably be just as easily argued that the CoJCoLDS is bigoted against them.

Daaaayyyyaaammmmmm!

*sniff*!!!! Seriously, THAT is THE first nice thing an Apologist has EVER said about me!

Oh wait, its Kevin... heh, the wet exmormon :)

Jesssss kiddin!

[_Tal Bachman]

Hi Wade

This is kind of a difficult question to answer, because even when someone is a bigot, it is almost impossible for vanity reasons to acknowledge that to oneself. For example, all of us have heard people begin a sentence by saying, "You know I don't have a racist bone in my body, but...". And right then comes a comment that many people might consider racist. Their self-image, in other words, tells us virtually nothing about whatever bigotry they may really feel, or be guilty of.

As an illustration of this, Wade, perhaps I can point out that you probably feel you are not bigoted against those with homosexual inclinations - yet, it is a fact that many millions of people, including probably 95 plus percent of all gay people on earth, plus probably 95 plus percent of all psychologists or psychiatrists on earth, would state flatly that you were, based on your writings on "sexual attraction disorders" at http://www.aros.net/~wenglund/sad.htm#Papers. They would also say your writings betrayed not only bigotry, but profound ignorance. Would that mean you were an ignorant bigot? If you said you weren't, but all those people said you were....who should we believe? And what in the end would it matter what you said? You can hear people say, "I'm not racist, but I don't like black people". You know? So what? What does that tell us, other than maybe that the human race is mad and vain?

P.S. Would you say that someone who believed that Catholics belonged to a church, the creed of which was an "abomination", qualified as a bigot? Catholics might - but that would also include you, wouldn't it, given that you believe that Joseph Smith was really quoting Jesus in his D & C autobiography...and it would also include me, since I think the Catholic church overall actually is a religious abomination, though I applaud them for their relief efforts, and I know a lot of Catholics I like personally.

You know what I'm saying? The answer is that there is probably no one on here who thinks of himself as a bigot. But what does that really mean? It's like how everyone says, "I'm a good person". So what? All it might really mean is that we're all vain.

[_Polygamy Porter]

I am just curious to see whether any of the participant here (particularly Polygamy Porter, MormonMendacity, Scratch, and Tal Bachman) consider themselves to be bigotted against the CoJCoLDS?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Since this a no-verbal-punctuation zone, I guess I cannot truly express my absolute hatred I have for the Salt Lake City branch of Mormonism, NOT the unwitting people(most of em), but the corporation of Flash Gordo.

Bigot? No. You won't see me waving garments in front of the conference center, wearing them, and only them perhaps.. but not waving them. Ahh scratch that.. with my arse hanging out the poop chute and my Johnson falling out the front, I'd get hauled off for public nudity.

The Salt Lake branch of Mormonism is all about changing to expand. They push their missionaries out like junk mailers and spam, hoping for a hit rate of 1,000 to 1... actually worse than junk mail.

I have more respect for the FLDS than I do the LDS church. WHY? The FLDS minds their own gawddamned business, they believe in their faith so much that they are willing to exile themselves from society and their leader stands up for what he believes in... YES he ran from the laws that he was breaking, BUT SO DID Joseph Smith,BY, JT, et al.

Once the COB ceases its human spam renewal program(a.k.a. missionary program) I will cease and desist. Until then I am on a un-mission to seek out every opportunity to reveal the true history, intentions, and nature of the Salt Lake branch of Mormonism, affectionately referred to by only themselves as CoJCoLDS.

As a member I was trained to hang on EVERY GAWDDAMNED word from non members to look for a place to set a noxious barbed hook, in an unwitting attempt to try and pull them into Mormonism. Now it is the complete opposite. I now hang on every word from non Mormons, looking for the opportunity to let out the most vile truth for their minds and hearts to get a wiff of and then I just revel in watching their faces wrinkle up in horror and I bathe in the loud laughter after I show them the handshakes and tell them about the SIX points of fellowship hug the horny old bastards used to give the young brides at the sheet with masonic cutouts in it.

At least three times a week, I find myself talking truth about Mormonism to non members. AND at least once a month I scare the fecal matter outta a member.

Will I end my posting on internet boards? Yes. But mark my words Wade, I will never get off my un-mission!