healing/recovery through venting?

[_beastie]

The problem with a discussion like this is that the terms are impossibly subjective. It's all in the eye of the beholder. How does one differentiate between venting and pointless anger and processing the loss of faith by discussing it with others who have been through it? Many human beings NEED to discuss traumatic events with others who truly understand what they are going through. That is one of the hardest things about losing faith as a Mormon. You can't talk about it with believing Mormons, and neverbeenmormons do not have the first clue, normally, about how traumatic it is to lose faith in Mormonism. This is because Mormonism is not a Sunday church. It is the "one true church", and provides an entire lens through which to see and understand the world and your place in it. Protestants, by and large wtih some minor exceptions, tend to be pretty relaxed about "which" church you attend, as long as it's christian, and really cannot comprehend why this is such a life-changing events for Mormons. And it's obvious why you're not "allowed" to talk about this with still believing friends and family members. It's too threatening and hurtful to them. Most of the time, if you want to retain relationships with still believing friends and members, you have to avoid the subject altogether to spare everyone's feelings.

So what are you left with? Other exmormons, of course - the only group that really understands. Honest to goodness, it shocks me how, on the internet, little believing Mormons seem to understand the traumatic nature of this event.

So you talk about it with the one group that understands. You go crazy otherwise, trying to process it all alone. Was there something wrong with me, that I no longer believe, or that I ever believed in the first place? How did this all happen? What the heck is going on??? Human beings, by nature, are tribal and need to feel as if there are other people, somewhere in the world, who understand what they are going through. It may look like pointless anger and pointless venting to outsiders, but it's processing the traumatic event.

I've been part of divorce support groups, too, and part of support groups for parents of children with bipolar. Believe me, at times members VENTED. It is so difficult dealing with these issues, you have so many stresses in real life, sometimes you just need to VENT.

When I first left the church, due to living in a nonLDS part of the country, I thought I must have been the only person on the entire east coast who left the church due to honestly not believing it to be true, after years of study and prayer. I had been taught for so long that people leave due to personal foibles, sin, getting their feelings hurt, not ever having had a testimony, that I had internalized that belief and thought I was alone in this way. It was shocking, and delightful, to get online and discover that I was far from alone, that hundreds of others were going through what I was going through. We really needed each other.

I find believers who refuse to admit that this is a traumatic event that requires support and yes, recovery, to be so steeped in protective mechanicisms to protect even CONSIDERING losing faith that they are just not allowing themselves to fully consider what it must feel like.

And if believers are so daggone bugged by RFM there is one simple solution. Don't go there. It wasn't designed for you in the first place. To quote the wise Gad (who, traitor that he is, IS once again posting on FAIR while ignoring us), if RFM causes believers such pain it's nice to know that SOME pain in this world is actually deserved.

Having said that, I think it is normal to move out of that phase. I still lurk and post sometimes on RFM, but only on certain threads. There are posters there with a lot of information, and it's often earlier than other sources in reporting news pertinent to Mormonism. And yes, there are a lot of junk threads there, but I learned this little secret. It's amazing, really. I want to share it with all of you for just a minimal fee. You know those digits on the end of your hand? Just don't use them to move that computer mouse over to RFM, and don't open the mean old threads.

[_Ray A]

Here is an article about anger from the APA.

http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=29

Unexpressed anger can create other problems. It can lead to pathological expressions of anger such as passive-aggressive behavior (getting back at people indirectly, without telling them why, rather than confronting them head-on), or a perpetually cynical and hostile attitude. People who are constantly putting others down, criticizing everything, and making cynical comments haven't learned how to express their anger constructively. Not surprisingly, they aren't likely to have many successful relationships.

The "let it all hang out" philosophy is debunked:

Is It Good to 'Let It All Hang Out'?

Psychologists now say that this is a dangerous myth. Some people use this theory as a license to hurt others. Research has found that 'letting it rip' with anger actually escalates anger and aggression and does nothing to help you (or the person you're angry with) resolve the situation.

It's best to find out what it is that triggers your anger, and then develop strategies to keep those triggers from toppling you over the edge.

(Emphasis added)

And this is why I'm thinking that people with long term anger need counselling, not venting on public forums:

With counseling, psychologists say, a highly angry person can move closer to a middle range of anger in about 8 to 10 weeks, depending on the circumstances and the counseling techniques used.

Thanks to Charles Spielberger, Ph.D., of the University of South Florida in Tampa; and to Jerry Deffenbacher, Ph.D., of Colorado State University in Ft. Collins, Colorado, a psychologist who specializes in anger management.

[_desert_vulture]

DV, What is your current overall view of RFM? I know you said it benefitted you, apparently for a short while, and it's a niche for some, but do you believe it is achieving its stated purpose of "recovery". Is that what helped you to recover (if you have, and it seems so, or are well on the way), and if not, what do you think helped the most to bring on a much calmer approach, while of course still making your points of disagreement with the church.

I posted only a few times at RfM. I lurked more. I spent most of my time on the defunct View from the Foyer, and NOM, among the many other informational sites. What I noticed is that RfM has a reputation for anger and venting. So I would go there when I was in that type of mood, and blow off steam, and laugh a lot at the ridiculous parodies and what not. It was helpful to me in the sense that it filled a need that I had at the time: to blow off steam about church-related issues. Because there are so many post-mormon related sites and discussion boards, one is able to pick and choose based on the stated objective of the board. I never became a regular on RfM like I did on NOM and now FLAK. So its hard for me to pass judgment since I was never a regular. But on the occasions that I visited I found its articles extremely informative. So my overall view of RfM would be that it fulfills its role in helping people "recover" especially those that have a high degree of anger associated with their newfound knowledge.

I would not say that I have fully recovered from the betrayal and disillusionment that I have felt. After sharing the information I've discovered with my wife, she is now in her own freefall of beliefs and it is very difficult for both of us. Getting through the day is difficult now that neither of us believe the church is what it claims to be. The intense pain and disillusionment are hard to describe to believing family members who continue to believe, so we choose not to involve them. This roller coaster of emotion is based on an uncertainty that we have now, and the discussion boards help out with that. She lurks, because it suits her needs. She visits the Faces East discussion board mostly. She has never visited RfM because she is handling the pain differently, by internalizing it. I don't think RfM helps that type of personality. But I would recommend RfM for those members who feel anger and a deep sense of betrayal by the church. I think if you look at it as a stepping stone to sanity and harsh reality, RfM fulfills its purpose.

[_Ray A]

And if believers are so daggone bugged by RFM there is one simple solution. Don't go there. It wasn't designed for you in the first place. To quote the wise Gad (who, traitor that he is, IS once again posting on FAIR while ignoring us), if RFM causes believers such pain it's nice to know that SOME pain in this world is actually deserved.

beastie, how then would you assess all the anger here directed at FAIR? Do you think it's fair for me to say to those who get angry at FAIR, then just don't go there? Leave it alone, get over it?

[_beastie]

Ray,

The complaining I see about RFM seems to heavily imply it just shouldn't exist. It's just a place for venting, for unhealthy people. There is no point to it, other than to encourage ugly hatred.

The criticisms about FAIR have to do with specific claims apologists are making over there, and the fact that, despite being supposedly for both believers and critics, the moderation is unreasonably biased towards believers. Or the criticisms are directed towards one poster in particular, making unsupported claims.

I don't participate on RFM threads that are simply group mocking, like all the posts about Dan. I don't even read them, I can tell by the titles I will find them pointless. But if you keep in mind the level of traffic and the number of threads that go through RFM on a daily basis, the mindless "picking" threads are a minority.

And yes, I think that if people get to the point where they are emotionally negatively impacted by FAIR, they should leave it alone. That is the reason I no longer post there, and never will again. And if I get to the point where I act like FAIR just shouldn't even exist, I hope someone will try to steer me away from it.

[_Ray A]

And yes, I think that if people get to the point where they are emotionally negatively impacted by FAIR, they should leave it alone. That is the reason I no longer post there, and never will again. And if I get to the point where I act like FAIR just shouldn't even exist, I hope someone will try to steer me away from it.

Just for the record, beastie, I don't believe I ever said that RFM shouldn't exist. If I have, then I'd like someone to point me to that. I'm only questioning whether it's stated purpose of recovery is really achievable, especially given what I've posted above from the APA. To be fair, I have read posters on RFM advise some other angry posters to get counselling, and I believe some of them are. I asked desert vulture for his views to try to understand some more of the phenomenon.

But I have to say, the obsession here with FAIR is extraordinary. Nothing surpasses it. RFM does not discuss FAIR anywhere near what occurs here. And FAIR occasionally allows discussion of RFM as long as board wars don't develop, and threads about RFM are often closed. However, I understand that Shades encourages board wars, and while I don't necessarily want a board war with RFM, I'm only taking up Shades' encouragement to an extent. So I think you may understand that. If FAIR is "fair game", so is RFM. Maybe I'll start a blog on RFM. Scratch needs some competition. But I'm jesting.

[_marg]

I think Wade and Ray are out to lunch with criticism that anger dominates the RFM board. I’ve read the RFM board off and on over a 5 year period and posts with anger are few and far between. The types of posts there are mainly in regards to Mormon history, atheism ( I think a lot of exmormons become atheists) , relationship problems, humorous posts, news items related to Mormonism. But most people do not come across as all that angry, at least on the board.

I think the sorts of posts which really bother Wade and Ray the most because they both are sensitive to this in my opinion ..are posts which mock (humorously or not), Mormonism, the church, individual Mormons such as particular apologists. I haven’t noticed whether Mormons is generally are mocked, I don’t believe so.

If one is attempting to persuade an individual they are in discussion with, mockery won’t work. However, on RFM the intended audience for the most part is not Mormons, but I can appreciate why Wade and Ray wouldn’t like reading it.

[_Ray A]

I think Wade and Ray are out to lunch with criticism that anger dominates the RFM board. I’ve read the RFM board off and on over a 5 year period and posts with anger are few and far between. The types of posts there are mainly in regards to Mormon history, atheism ( I think a lot of exmormons become atheists) , relationship problems, humorous posts, news items related to Mormonism. But most people do not come across as all that angry, at least on the board.

I think the sorts of posts which really bother Wade and Ray the most because they both are sensitive to this in my opinion ..are posts which mock (humorously or not), Mormonism, the church, individual Mormons such as particular apologists. I haven’t noticed whether Mormons is generally are mocked, I don’t believe so.

If one is attempting to persuade an individual they are in discussion with, mockery won’t work. However, on RFM the intended audience for the most part is not Mormons, but I can appreciate why Wade and Ray wouldn’t like reading it.

And I think marg is "out to lunch" on every subject she comments on.

[_msnobody]

You know, sometimes I'd really like to send a torpedo through that little yellow boat.

[_marg]

And I think marg is "out to lunch" on every subject she comments on.

What I like about RFM..is the honesty, high moral values, creativity, intelligence, and humor.

What I dislike about FAIR is the petty mindedness, irrationality, stupidity, poor moral values, and dishonesty.

That is the way I perceive those boards. And I have no anger with regards to Mormonism. One can be critical without being angry.