Mormonisms social caste system - My Personal Experience

[_Southern Redneck]

Back on subject.

I think the whole issue of social classes in the church due to income is nonsense. All churches suffer from that to one point. That is not a Mormon issue alone.

The classes based on Harmony's list IS a subject worth looking into.

[_Mercury]

Vegas:

Your post is a good example of inverse arrogance. Arrogance that you are better than weak men who value success. Your arrogance is no better than theirs. The fact that you can barely write the King's English makes it all the worse.

Carry on.

P, you and Jason attacked the messenger, not the message. Could you please stick to the subject and cease and desist with the personal attacks? I know you both have a great deal to add to any discussion, so please try, okay?

"Your post . . . " is attacking the messenger?

You have no clue about rhetoric. You are a clueless person. There, I am attacking the messenger. See the difference.

Plutarch.

Your post was directly attacking me, stating that my motives were an "inverse arrogance", thus attacking the messenger. Instead of countering my argument you merely said the argument was invalid because I am an eliteist.

[_Jason Bourne]

It is sillier to argue that it is intent and design that creates this.

Who said anything about intent? It's quite natural for social structures to evolve that way. Of course, there's more denial about this one because the kingdom of God is not supposed to operate this way.

I've said before that there are two kinds of people in the church: the users and the used. Most of the real work is done by the used, those who really believe in it. Most of the higher-level leadership, in my experience, consists of the users, those who understand how to take advantage of the system.

How do you define high level? Are ward leaders users? I have held almost every position in a ward and do not believe I have been a user. In fact, the time and effort has put in has far exceeded most, at great personal sacrafice.

Now, intnet? Intent is how I read Vegas's OP. But I am willing to back peddle here. Social structures naturally migrate to e a level of comfortability. A bishop selecting counselors is certainly going to want to look to call someone they trust and are confident in. The same is true for and SP that calls bishops.

But yes, I have seen things that tend to back up a social strata. We used to joke that all the stake positions in our stake were filled from the two more "wealthy" wards. That has changed some and part of it was due to that fact that 10 or 15 years ago these two wards had more acitve members willing to serve. The other wards, mine included, struggled more at that time. That had since changed. Also, who hangs with whom. Earlier I said my ward is pretty diverse and we are all friendly with each other. But if I am honest when we hang together socially we migrate to the ones we are most comfortable around.

Is this a bad or evil thing?

Jason

[_moksha]

Is this a bad or evil thing?

Jason

Sticking to one's social class and giving preferential treatment to the wealthy would be the order of the day for the Court of Versailles in the days of the Sun King, but it is fairly well anathema to Christian ideals of brotherhood. We need to determine who we are trying to emulate.

[_Runtu]

How do you define high level? Are ward leaders users? I have held almost every position in a ward and do not believe I have been a user. In fact, the time and effort has put in has far exceeded most, at great personal sacrafice.

No, I wouldn't call ward-level leaders "high level" at all. I believed with all my heart and would have done anything I was asked to do, and I too held almost every ward position I could have. What I found surprising in my dealings with the higher ups is that very few of them had the same kind of experience I did. In my work with GAs, mission presidents, etc., I found that these were not the same self-sacrificing people I'd seen throughout the church. These were indeed the "users," the kind of people who demand that their milk be kept at 40 degrees and who insist that the vents in the chapel be blocked so that they don't have air blowing on them as they speak (both of these are actual demands from current apostles). A friend of mine who was a veil coordinator at a special temple session for a mission presidents' conference told me how shocked he was that almost every one of them needed help at the veil. Most of us, I would imagine, could do the veil exchange in our sleep.

Most members of the church are the used. They, like us, would do anything for the church. Those who understand how the game is played are the users.

[_harmony]

Leaders come in a heirarchy:

Ward bishop
Stake high council
Stake president
Mission president
Area authority
General authority
First Presidency

When I read: "...someone they trust and are confident in", I hear: "friends and family will be the only people considered". Which explains the phenomena I've witnessed repeatedly in my ward and stake: it's always the same people are called to the leadership callings. No one else is asked. Let's take my stake president (whom I love very much, as we've been friends for over 35 years, so don't think I'm being insulting):

His callings since he got married, in order:

Gospel Doctrine teacher
Sunday School president
Bishop's counselor
Stake Young Men's president
Bishop
High Council
Stake president's counselor
Stake president

Is this man the only qualified good-hearted man in our stake? Heck, no! Most of the men in our stake could do what he does, but they are never given the chance, because they do not run in the same church-social circles as this man. They are not known to leaders up the food chain, and so they are never considered. This man (and a few others) is tapped over and over again to the point where it's ludicrous.

Another factor to consider is the demands on these few men. Let me tell you, this man, this friend of mine, is tired. His health is failing, and he's younger than I am! The stress is killing him. He's never been able to concentrate on his business, his wife, or his children, because he's always having to run-run-run and do the church's business. He almost lost his farm once, because he was too busy taking care of church business and not busy enough taking care of his own.

[_ajax18]

I saw the phenomena of the richest people getting the power callings in Florida but for the most part I didn't mind. None of the stake presidency worked. All had retired early and were very wealthy. Hence they had all sorts of time to put into Church.

Yet his work in Church often amounted to nothing more than brow beating lower members. I guess he just ran the church like he did his business. And don't think because of the extra time he would ever deal with nonbelievers or do actual missionary work or any kind of work that didn't involve telling someone else what to do. He always kept himself well insulated behind the locked office doors.

My stake president now is totally different and I'm glad to no longer be amongst the church's financial upper class. I didn't fit in as poor man starting out and I doubt I'd fit in if I were a millionarie. No he doesn't have as much time because he has to work too, but he definitely relates to normal people better. Nor is any job beneath him at Church.

[_Coggins7]

This year and a half expierement taught me that the Mormon culture is a caste system in which a pool of willing serfs are shepherded by the Mormon elite.

Loran:

No further quoting is necessary. I really, really don't know who you think your're fooling, how early you believe you have to get up in the moring to do it, and what quantities of psychotropic compounds are necessary to cauterize your conscience after each episode with these utterly hysterical screeds you keep posting. Nobody...nobody who actually knows faithful, practicing Mormons is ever going to believe you Vegas, and many of them are going to walk away from you with the terms liar, bigot, and ass running through their minds from the encounter.

You're probably are really unaware of the intelligence insulting nature of much of what you write, and how much it looks like similar bigoted, demagogic ranting against other un-politically correct subgroups within the present society. It would not surprise me in the least were the exmo intellectual Thugee cult that has grown to such prominence on the Internet to actually produce, at some point, its very own Protocols of The Elders of Israel. Oh, wait a minute. They have. Its called The Godmakers.

[_Runtu]

This year and a half expierement taught me that the Mormon culture is a caste system in which a pool of willing serfs are shepherded by the Mormon elite.

Loran:

No further quoting is necessary. I really, really don't know who you think your're fooling, how early you believe you have to get up in the moring to do it, and what quantities of psychotropic compounds are necessary to cauterize your conscience after each episode with these utterly hysterical screeds you keep posting. Nobody...nobody who actually knows faithful, practicing Mormons is ever going to believe you Vegas, and many of them are going to walk away from you with the terms liar, bigot, and ass running through their minds from the encounter.

You're probably are really unaware of the intelligence insulting nature of much of what you write, and how much it looks like similar bigoted, demagogic ranting against other un-politically correct subgroups within the present society. It would not surprise me in the least were the exmo intellectual Thugee cult that has grown to such prominence on the Internet to actually produce, at some point, its very own Protocols of The Elders of Israel. Oh, wait a minute. They have. Its called The Godmakers.

So, the moral of the story is this: if you don't like someone's post, call them a hater and bigot and anti-Mormon. You've been hanging around Wade too long.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Coggy, seems you haven't changed your medication ;-) Love your posts!!

Re the opening post: Vegas is expressing his personal experiences. Experiences that are not uniquely his, as other posters confirm. I think there is ample evidence that Mormons are less different from others than we expect them to be.

Such expectations serve no constructive purpose but to point out the errors we tend to take as truth. Experiencing the things we do should make us smarter and able to navigate life's rough spots without exploding, as some tend to do.

That disenchantment with people and institutions happen is a good thing. Hopefully one would not want to continue in a dissatifying relationship or environment??? "Know the truth..."

The "truth" about LDSism, and its folks, in whatever position they hold, is often--by some--very disconcerting, if not painful because the Institution TENDS to indoctriate its members with "Church Perfection". This Missionary message seeds the inevitable--for some--fruits of 'apostacy'. They are built in by arrogance and ignorance from Top-down, and Bottom-up that some people will just not abide.

That others seem to thrive in this dysfunction might be more to their credit than not???

My experience has been as a convert in the far reaches of the Canadian Mission Field. A group of poor folks, we huddled together against the "cold cruel world" with no discrimination what-so-ever. Well, maybe to those not good enough to remain, or to be on time, or didn't do their HT/VT, or didn't maintain our dress standards... OK, we were discrimating. Because we were/are normal.

We do it all the time. Our off-hours activities, our entertainment, the books we read, the music we enjoy, blah, blah, blah... Who wants to spend time with folks who choose every item above differently than we do??? I'm geting to my point:

One really dumb thing about the LDS Institution is::: the arbitrarily edicted dictate that Stake/Ward/Branch boundries Trump freedom to choose where one attends the church of their choice. Boundries puts one too often in an uncomfortable position... Sooooo..... suffer or switch!!

Could it be the rigidity, and authoritarianism of THE Corporate LDS structure is defeating its Christian purpose??? More to say but gotta attend the church-of-my-choice!!