How does the church count exmembers and inactives?

[_moksha]

Is the raw Church demographic data accessible? Keeping everyone who had a membership in the data till they turn age 110, is bound to create an inaccurate depiction of true membership numbers.

I would suggest a much better number would be the total of the average yearly head count, that been accurately kept by all those Ward Clerks.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Is the raw Church demographic data accessible? Keeping everyone who had a membership in the data till they turn age 110, is bound to create an inaccurate depiction of true membership numbers.

I would suggest a much better number would be the total of the average yearly head count, that been accurately kept by all those Ward Clerks.

That may make sense moksha, but it may not be the most faith promoting information to release.

Bond

[_Jason Bourne]

Huh? There wasn't any "fuzzy" math there at all. It was all simple addition and subtraction only.

Where are the ghosts? The math showed an net increase each year. Convert plus child of records when compared to the net increase shows some left. So? We know some leave. You said the church adds ghosts. All they do is say here is total membership, here are converts and here are child of records. If one wants to do the math they can.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

I have a few questions.

How are members who officially resign counted by the church?

Do children of resigned parents get counted, or do they go down as resigned too?

If a 20 year old was to join and go inactive within the year, how long will that member be counted?

Bond

Those are some very good questins and you will get not get a concrete answer....but if you do...I owe you one

I think they are counted for ever and ever,,,,

Well I oweyou one because of Dr.Shades, whom I believe to have the more accurate data

I knew you would get some weird answers too..and it does not surprise from whomthe answers came from

Oh well JB fuzzy math and simple addition and subtraction can be difficult at times...I understand

[_Dr. Shades]

Where are the ghosts? The math showed an net increase each year. Convert plus child of records when compared to the net increase shows some left. So? We know some leave. You said the church adds ghosts. All they do is say here is total membership, here are converts and here are child of records. If one wants to do the math they can.

That's just it. I DID do the math.

Here's how it works: The church can't increase by more than the number of people who join it, can they?

But in the two years in question, it did. The grand total of Mormons increased by more than the number of children who were added or converts who were baptized.

Let's break it down a little more:

Your next-door neighbors are a married couple with one child. The wife is pregnant, then goes to the hospital to deliver. They have another single birth (not twins, not triplets, not quadruplets, etc.).

You come home to see the next-door neighbor husband in his yard. He says, "I'm so proud! We're now a family of five!"

You say, "That's impossible! You're only a family of four."

"No," he replies. "There are now five members of my family."

You say to him, "You and your wife make two. Your first child makes three. Now you've had a second child, so you can only say you're a family of four, since two parents plus two children equal four."

"Nope!" he says. "We're a family of five!"

See how that drama plays out? For reasons known only to himself, he added a "ghost member" to his family total, since he's claiming more members than actually ever joined.

The church did the same thing, as I clearly demonstrated on that site. Someone in the COB made a few creative keystrokes and added some ghost members the same way your hypothetical next-door neighbor did.

[_Jason Bourne]

Where are the ghosts? The math showed an net increase each year. Convert plus child of records when compared to the net increase shows some left. So? We know some leave. You said the church adds ghosts. All they do is say here is total membership, here are converts and here are child of records. If one wants to do the math they can.

That's just it. I DID do the math.

Here's how it works: The church can't increase by more than the number of people who join it, can they?

But in the two years in question, it did. The grand total of Mormons increased by more than the number of children who were added or converts who were baptized.

Let's break it down a little more:

Your next-door neighbors are a married couple with one child. The wife is pregnant, then goes to the hospital to deliver. They have another single birth (not twins, not triplets, not quadruplets, etc.).

You come home to see the next-door neighbor husband in his yard. He says, "I'm so proud! We're now a family of five!"

You say, "That's impossible! You're only a family of four."

"No," he replies. "There are now five members of my family."

You say to him, "You and your wife make two. Your first child makes three. Now you've had a second child, so you can only say you're a family of four, since two parents plus two children equal four."

"Nope!" he says. "We're a family of five!"

See how that drama plays out? For reasons known only to himself, he added a "ghost member" to his family total, since he's claiming more members than actually ever joined.

The church did the same thing, as I clearly demonstrated on that site. Someone in the COB made a few creative keystrokes and added some ghost members the same way your hypothetical next-door neighbor did.

I do not see this. If I take 2005 and 2004 and do the math there is an increase, as this site shows, of 285,047. That is is. Just because they say there are 243,108 converts and 93,150 COR's does not make them claim there is an increase of 336,258. The two are independent.

[_moksha]

Is the raw Church demographic data accessible? Keeping everyone who had a membership in the data till they turn age 110, is bound to create an inaccurate depiction of true membership numbers.

I would suggest a much better number would be the total of the average yearly head count, that been accurately kept by all those Ward Clerks.

That may make sense moksha, but it may not be the most faith promoting information to release.

Bond

Oh, now I get it. Higher numbers equal better faith promotion. I hope they use the regular numbers for ordering supplies though.

[_Dr. Shades]

I do not see this. If I take 2005 and 2004 and do the math there is an increase, as this site shows, of 285,047. That is is. Just because they say there are 243,108 converts and 93,150 COR's does not make them claim there is an increase of 336,258. The two are independent.

I know that. As I clearly point out, the net increase should always be lower than the gross increase (converts plus children), since some Mormons will die (or have their names removed from the records or be excommunicated). 336,258 is the gross increase; 285,047 is the net increase. Net was less than gross, as expected.

But you're missing the point: The ghost members were added in 1999 and 1975, not in 2005 or 2004. See the numbers in red boldfaced text.

[_truth dancer]

In the summer of 2005 there was some interesting research, (articles in a SLC paper and presented at Sunstone), suggesting active members were around 1/3 of the 12 million members claimed by the church.

I have asked for stats in a few wards ... seems about 1/2 of those on the rolls of the church (in the ward) are active, 1/4 Temple worthy. This is in the US outside Utah. In foreign countries the numbers are much much lower so I'm guessing the numbers are around four or five million "real" members worldwide.

~dancer~

[_Mercury]

Is the raw Church demographic data accessible? Keeping everyone who had a membership in the data till they turn age 110, is bound to create an inaccurate depiction of true membership numbers.

I would suggest a much better number would be the total of the average yearly head count, that been accurately kept by all those Ward Clerks.

That may make sense moksha, but it may not be the most faith promoting information to release.

Bond

Oh, now I get it. Higher numbers equal better faith promotion. I hope they use the regular numbers for ordering supplies though.

Oh come on!

Mormonism, like any business runs on numbers. As a missionary the only thing they cared about was numbers. I could get away with alot more when I was dunking than when I was not dunking. If I was not "performing" and getting better digits then I was more likely to get into hot water, irregardless of the percieved breaking of the rules in the "white handbook".