FAIR to TBM Volunteer: "Go screw yourself!"

[_Mister Scratch]

Quite a sad post over on ZLMB, from an apparently depressed poster called "jskains":

I offered my time, finances, and resources to FAIR recently, only to basically be told to go screw myself. I guess all that gospel teachings like forgiveness doesn't apply to FAIR folks.

I was a meber of there list when I did have a crisis of faith in a very complicated time in my life. Apparently my questions rubbed some people the wrong way and now I am a permanent black mark on their records.

(emphasis added)

He offers up more cogent criticism a bit further along in the thread:

That rejection by FAIR was a bit hurtful and I think goes to show a bit of elitism that exists with them. I had a crisis of faith. Sorry, but it helped me evolve. So I asked some questions of concern on the FAIR list, so they kicked me off. And this all happened several years ago!!! Guess they aren't bound by the rules of the Gospel like fellowshipping, love, kindness, understanding, forgiveness, etc.

[...]

I have learned, however, not to be the type of Mormon who is close minded to others, expecially those who also have a honest crisis of faith. I am open to the bigger questions, allowing for a member who is seeking to ask SOMEONE who can listen and understand. Many LDS seem to think asking questions is somehow evil or dangerous. This "Milk before the Meat" concept is somewhat abused. There is a point when one is done with the Milk and is ready for the MEAT!

Perhaps God has brought me on this quest so I can help others in a real-life setting. I hope so. I think there are LDS who have been abused by the close-minded and then those who are further abused by self-rightous Christians who have nothing better to do than spread hate and discontent about a group of people they don't agree with. Being betrayed by those we trust often hurts the most, so I think many Ex-LDS run to the nasty Mainstream "cult" watchgroups as a lessor of two evils.

Some very interesting observations here. But what strikes me as being most intriguing is the fact that FAIR, in effect, told this guy to "shove it," despite the fact that he offered them money and the fact that FAIR has repeatedly made it clear that they are low on funds. It makes me think that S. Gordon & et. al. must really be in panic mode, waving their arms about in a paranoid frenzy, completely unwilling to allow anyone to help out with the cause.

[_MormonMendacity]

It is sad to me that understanding of the challenges people face is so lacking -- pretty much overall inside Mormondom. Except for Wade and Loran, we don't have anyone pretending to think about our personal, psychological welfare. ;p

[_moksha]

The fairly MAD group is a tough lot to keep happy. I did a Google search for JSkains and discovered his involvement with LDS internet stuff predates my own involvement. He has obviously had some history with Juliann, but who hasn't? She was on my case a number of times as well. I noticed Dr. Shades name was mentioned in connection to some of the JSkains grievances back when regarding Juliann as well.

Here is what I found on JSkains blurb at Beliefnet, "I'm one of those tired of all the self appointed people telling everyone that their religion is evil or wrong or not Christian. People need to learn what Christ taught, and that is not to judge, for that is His place... Only Christ can tell who is truly Christian, and who isn't." I totally agree with him on this point."

No doubt the MAD rejection was a blessing in disguise, since I suspect he would ultimately feel frustrated with the MAD Administration group. The Mormonism Debate forum at Beliefnet has needed a Mormon moderator for a long time now. I wish he would do that and spend his money helping the downtrodden instead.

[_Dr. Shades]

I offered my time, finances, and resources to FAIR recently, only to basically be told to go screw myself. I guess all that gospel teachings like forgiveness doesn't apply to FAIR folks.

Weird, very weird.

I'm sure they didn't put it the same way he put it, but I wonder: What was their exact wording in their "shove off" reply?

No doubt the MAD rejection was a blessing in disguise, since I suspect he would ultimately feel frustrated with the MAD Administration group.

Agreed. Now at least he knows what they're really like.

[_beastie]

Yes, Josh has been around a very long time. In fact, Josh is to blame for the fact that I ever began participating on boards such as ZLMB, which were designed for conversations between believers and exbelievers. Prior to that, I participated mainly on RFM or the very small fringe board. (which was mostly nonbelievers with some liberal believers thrown in and an occasional visiting, lecturing, TBM.) For some reason, Josh wandered onto the Fringe board and began talking about polygamy. Clearly he knew very little about the real history of polygamy/polygyny in the church. I shared some very basic information about Joseph Smith marrying at least 30 other women, including very young women, and women who happened to already have living husbands, some of whom they never left after marrying Joseph, too. Josh could not believe it. He accused me of fabrications, of evil exmormon malicious, devious misrepresentations. Well, he told me, he didn't know enough to refute my statements but he knew of a board that had really SMART and well informed Mormons that would blow me out of the water. Zion's Lighthouse Message Board. Would I care to post there? I initially turned him down, because I never would, and never will, post on a message board intended for believers only. He and others explained that the Z board was for nonbelievers too, so I went and proceeded to discuss polygamy as Josh had wanted.

This may have been one of Josh's first exposure to the wild side of the street, because it became apparent that the really smart apologists weren't proving I was a liar at all. In fact, they agreed I was sharing facts (although a few immediately accused me of being malicious all the same, notably Juliann and Pahoran. It was shocking to post on a board like that for the first time and share facts that no educated person among them disputed, but still be attacked personally. Josh was quite disappointed that the big guns hadn't put me in my place. But then I became interested in the whole idea of talking with "true blue Mormons", and began a journey that lasted several years (and seems to be ending here, more or less)

So I have also known Josh a long time. I largely leave him alone, due to the fact that, by his own admission, he has emotional and social issues, and really is struggling to figure his faith out. At this point, I think he mainly identifies himself as a social Mormon who rejects the traditional teachings of Mormonism, and even is quite uncertain whether or not a god even exists.

I suspect that his offer was rejected at FAIR because FAIR may have the history of kow-towing a bit to its funders. (see: Juliann) Too many people there knew Josh's somewhat unstable history to feel comfortable with that. There have been times when he has seemed suicidal, and I would be worried about forming a relationship that could later harm him as well. I think he is getting some help.

[_Mister Scratch]

The fairly MAD group is a tough lot to keep happy. I did a Google search for JSkains and discovered his involvement with LDS internet stuff predates my own involvement. He has obviously had some history with Juliann, but who hasn't? She was on my case a number of times as well. I noticed Dr. Shades name was mentioned in connection to some of the JSkains grievances back when regarding Juliann as well.

Here is what I found on JSkains blurb at Beliefnet, "I'm one of those tired of all the self appointed people telling everyone that their religion is evil or wrong or not Christian. People need to learn what Christ taught, and that is not to judge, for that is His place... Only Christ can tell who is truly Christian, and who isn't." I totally agree with him on this point."

No doubt the MAD rejection was a blessing in disguise, since I suspect he would ultimately feel frustrated with the MAD Administration group. The Mormonism Debate forum at Beliefnet has needed a Mormon moderator for a long time now. I wish he would do that and spend his money helping the downtrodden instead.

Huh. You know, it's interesting, Mok---I wonder if he did indeed mean "MAD", rather than "FAIR," since, as we all know, the two are now completely separate and unrelated entities. ; ) Additionally, MAD did indeed put out a "call for Mods" recently. As it turns out, I would be more than happy to serve as a mod on MAD.

[_Brackite]

Hi there,

Josh 'jskains' is now recently on the MA&D Board (formally called the 'FAIR' Message Board) with that Post of his which is basically the same in the MA&D Board as it was on the Zion Lighthouse Message Board. Here is the URL to that Post of his on that Discussion Thread:
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=20452

Juliann has been Posting in that Discussion Thread of his. She is not being that nice to him over there.
And Brackite can't sleep tonight because he has a bad cold and a very bad cough, so he is online late tonight.

[_moksha]

I hope you feel better soon Bracklite. It would be nice if you or someone can keep us updated on this story.

[_msnobody]

Huh. You know, it's interesting, Mok---I wonder if he did indeed mean "MAD", rather than "FAIR," since, as we all know, the two are now completely separate and unrelated entities. ; ) Additionally, MAD did indeed put out a "call for Mods" recently. As it turns out, I would be more than happy to serve as a mod on MAD.

Yes, ;)

[_Mister Scratch]

The FAIR, er, whoops---I mean MAD version of this thread has been juicy indeed. Here is jskains' OP:

Many years ago, I had a true crisis of faith. At the same time I happened to be a member of FAIR. When I asked for help on some of my issues, I was torn down by one or two of the more active members who decided I was unfit for membership, and eventually I was cast out. Now I admit I might have pushed some buttons, but I did feel as if I was receiving no real support in my crisis and that I could have gotten a more "fellowship" response from my so-called "Brothers and Sisters".

Well that was some time ago. I've grown (married, own my own company now, doing well in the Gospel), so I decided to donate some funds and help FAIR out because I still believed they do good. I also figured that an organization deticated to defending the gospel would be the first to show an example of the very thing they are defending by forgiving and moving on. Of course I chose the list membership, put the information to pay, and guess what.... El Presidente, and Mr. Wyatt send me a letter basically telling me where I could stick my donation. Basically my money wasn't good enough and I was unwanted by their elite membership.

Certainly it was hurtful. I refer a lot of people to the FAIR website and I felt I could help out, but I am told to go to hell.

I wonder... Does the credibility of a group set to defend a gospel get reduced if the leaders and members can not set an example of the teachings? Do we as LDS have an obligation to follow the teachings if we are going to be so public about our support? And finally, is the "Amway" syndrome more common than I thought?

(Amway Syndrome is based on the idea that Amway members often reject friends and family who either a. question the Amway program or b. have left. I know many people who were marked as outcast by all their so-called Amway friends when they quit the program.)

Just some thoughts and some venting...

JMS

My chief thought in all of this is: Would you please post the text of the letter, so we can determine for ourselves what Wyatt and "El Presidente" said? His "Amway Syndrome" thing is interesting, too.

Anyways, who do you suppose comes in to join this little sob party? Yep, juliann:

you were not told to "stick it" or anything close to that. The FAIR elist is not a personal support group or a club and never has been. It functions to promote the needs of FAIR. Your rendition of what happened is inaccurate and inflammatory and might be your best indication of why an elist would not want to subject it members to this again when things don't go your way.

Just some thoughts...and truth.

Huh? All he said was that he wanted to help to "promote the needs of FAIR." On the other hand, it certainly feels like she is referring to extra information which we don't have. Any guesses as to what that might be?

See folks? Juliann was actually the most hateful. I accidently caught an email between her and one of the other members demanding I be removed. It was a very cruel email and really sadly not reflective of the gospel. That is truth. Support group or not, I was cast out for daring to have some questions. And this time around I wasn't asking for support, I was offering to help. I assumed we all could move on. Course some of this must ring true... Juliann's agression is telling.

And yes, my donation was returned and I was told I was unwanted. That is being told to "stick it". Giving someone a chance to show a difference is inviting of the spirit of the gospel. It is sad that some members of FAIR can not set an example of the love of the savior.

JMS

I'd like to see that email, too. juliann really doesn't seem like a very nice person at all. Anyways, here's her reply:

Josh, all you do is make accusations which you never back up...and whine. Too many people have been exposed to your act on message boards. Is there anyone you have not alienated? Grow up.

Cruella DeJuliann

What a terrific response. It occurs to me that juliann continues to tumble down the ladder of respectability, hitting her fat head on each of the rungs of nastiness and vitriol as she falls. She used to be married to an abusive man. She ought to know better. Granted, I obviously am not privy to the full story here, but jskains seems remarkably civil to me. Or perhaps that simple due to the fact that I am reading his posts alongside juliann's:

Everyone handles their situations differently I guess. I believe in change, and for a public organization, the best way for change these days is to let the public know of a grevance. I have a greater concern for an organization proclaiming to defend the gospel who then defies the teachings by treating someone who dares have questions like a peice of dirt.

Unfortunatly, Anti-LDS and sometimes uninterested outsiders often describe Mormons as being elitist. I think we need to root out that elitism wherever it lies. I think there are other members that DO have a point in their lives where they have questions or get lost or confused. I think it does the whole Church a disservice when the "brothers" and "sisters" condemn them or treat them as lessor individuals.

If this were just a private issue, I would have kept it so. But this is in regards to a public organization that gets a lot of press, and I just feel they should hold up to the standards they defend.

And plus, I just get a kick out of the fact that the very person who campaigned so harshy to have me tossed on my ear was the first to jump up and down.

It kinda helped me too, since I am not so hurt by her immediate attack on me. It overall tells me that I did get over her treatment of me and I forgive her.

Back and forth it goes:

Um, Josh...FAIR is not a public organization. It is private. Just out of curiosity...how many message boards have you visited with your most recent list of gripes? Has anyone ever escaped your public thrashings?

You are a public organization in that you actively produce an image to the public to defend the Church. This does not nessesarily refer to your operational organization.

As for public thrashings, I don't know very many people I have publicly thrashed. I also am not active on any other boards other than ZLMB which has fallen into an interesting state. I do have to say I am getting quite the thrashing from you right now.

I hope your not doing all this as a representative of FAIR. Is this thrashing of yours being done in some official capacity?

(emphasis added, as this becomes important later on.)

Flying in to offer up a bit of levity is Hawkmoon:

While I agree that "airing your dirty laundry and negative feelings here" is not the best example of living the gospel, and in poor taste, I do think it is rather uneccessary for the spittle to fly in response to it. Sometimes some very interesting comments are lost due to the vitriolic nature of the post itself.

Anyway, jskains you're probably not going to get much sympathy here, and what sympathy you do get is going to be from the typical "must support all negative comments against FAIR, FARMS and morminism" tripe that occur here and on other boards. Was that what you were aiming for? I am sorry to see the negativity you associate with what happened and the hurt you still feel regarding it. However, if things are going as well as you indicated it may be a good idea to let it go.

Then, guess what? I could hardly believe this, but it seems Calmoriah is really ratcheting up the nastiness. You can practically smell the bitterness seething from her nostrils in this post:

Joseph Smith, is this recent thread over on zlmb a statement of your current belief?

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispages ... =1&stop=50

So what do I really believe? I think it is all a story at the end of the day...I find it no different than the SCA (Society of Creative Anacronisms - A bunch of people pretending to be knights and kings...So it is a matter of picking a story to follow or chose to pick no story at all. I still chose Mormonism.

Is it the "true" church? Most likely not. It's a great interpretation of an old fairytale...

But in the end, I really at least don't think there is a religion that really matches reality. As I said, I think religion evolved to become what Mankind wanted it to be....

One day I might get tired of being a Mormon. Perhaps I will find somthing better to pass the time and to make friends with. Then I will just be classified as "spiritual". I do believe there is likely a spirit of some kind, perhaps just the energy of the mind. I am open to Ghosts. But again, am not locked to anything....

In the end, I just don't think there is a binding religion. I don't think you have to perscribe to one or another to make it to some heaven or hell. I think that was a product of the human imagination to give people something to look forward to....

In the end, it's "no deal" for me. I still have nothing I have bought into. Perhaps I am still waiting for the cute model to open the next case to show me what I am possibly missing...or what I really do have in my hand.

When I grew up, I kept the belief in God. Now I am starting to see God as nothing more than the Adult Santa Clause.

If so, you might notice the contradiction with the FAIR elist membership requirement:

It [the elist] is designed for those actively involved in defending the faith and those producing content for our Web site. Participation on the list is limited to those supportive of the LDS Church and supportive of FAIR's mission.

If you simply want to support FAIR financially, they probably wouldn't reject a straight out gift donation. But elist membership is for a specific type of participant and that membership fee/donation helps cover the cost of the list itself among other things.

A couple of things. First, I am unaware of any place where jskains indicated that the donation came with any strings attached. Did it? Second, why is Cal trying to smear him? What's in it for her? Why does someone who has struggled with depression and near-heresy want to bash somebody like this? Not very nice, Cal. Not very nice at all. A bit further on, jskains pops in to clear things up:

No, actually. There is a long history and a lot of additional information would be required to context that post. That is why cross-posting like that is considered poor form. Many people over their knew where I was going, and it became an eloganted point to demonstrate the futility of anti-LDS Christians and that Christianity itself can come under many of the same attacks that they do on Mormonism.

Dig Calmoriah's reply:

Well, I will admit I don't' read many of the threads over there these days, but all the ones I've read of yours lately seem to be proclaiming a current state of disbelief in everything. If there are some threads or posts that demonstrate you are devoutly committed to the LDS faith at this time, perhaps you could point them out.

Ah, I see. So she's tossing out judgments before she's actually done any research. Don't you just love people who cast aspersions on the basis of ignorance? This seems to be par for the course with Calmoriah these days.

The discussion goes back and forth a bit more, delineating what seems to be a rich and interesting history:

Again, how many years do you punish someone for a past event? If I ran an organization of FAIR's nature, I certainly would give people second chances. Members of the LDS Church are supposed to be a family, working together as a team.

Look, it all took place over 5+ years ago. I was what, 24? I am turning 30 now. I didn't appreciate the treatment, and I don't think an organization that defends a gospel of forgiveness and love should slam someone like me without first at least trying to see where they are at after 5 years. And as you can see, I am not the sole "instigator". Other elements were equally responsible for the discontent, yet I got the entire brunt of the punishment.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

JMS, some things have changed and others haven't. You are still a passionate and sometimes volatile poster. You still make public personal complaints rather than trying to resolve them privately. These and other current things combined with past tendencies that they would have no clue whether or not you've changed on...well, the list is supposed to be a quiet, laidback place. If I had any influence with the list Powers That Be, I would probably tell them it's not a good personality mix plus the type of discussions that take place on it aren't the type of discussions you start and join in on at ZLMB.

So: in effect, Cal is telling him to "screw off" too. Here is jskains's penultimate post, right before he signs off and goes to bed, interspersed with my remarks:

First off, I did try to resolve it privately, and I got ignored. Plus, I don't make things public on ZLMB that were not already public. I think your brain is filling in blanks to make a point.

I agree that he is right on the mark re: Cal. I also think it's important to note in passing that this is precisely what FAIR/MAD does: it airs "issues" in thinks will impugn posters it doesn't like, and ignores stuff that "persona non grata" posters try to handle privately.

Secondly, judging people on a place like ZLMB isn't an accurate understanding of someone, and your assumptions that the types of discussions I would have on ZLMB are somehow the same as I would have on a list of FAIRs nature is a far stretch, unless you have Anti-LDS, Strong minded RLDS, with a touch of evangelical Christian attacks.

People are different depending on the environment they are in, and assuming that a person is volatile on what is naturally a volatile message board is unfair and not an honest approach in the online world. I've been on the net since the early 90's, and most of that has been in many different settings from MUSH, MUCK, MOO, etc. etc. and you learn a LONG time coming that you can morph into different characters based on the needs of the local environment. I know that more now than I used to.

On ZLMB, I try a different system of trying to get my point across than I do on some of the LDS Only lists I am on. To act as if that is unheard of is being dishonest. I think everyone does it to some degree. I have met people that annoy me online in person and we got along famously.

I think it is only proper to context ZLMB and then think about my "passionate" posts on ZLMB. I can argue both sides and often do in order to gain different understandings of different positions and it has worked for me in a very personal matter.

Assuming I wouldn't be far less confrontational on an LDS only list based on a crisis in my life 5 years ago is unfair. Perhaps some of you should try to get to know me PERSONALLY rather than make so many assumptions based on an online persona on a very confrontational board. That is truely an honest approach.

All of this is quite sad, in my opinion. It is a classic case of TBM shunning. Anyways, Dan Vogel briefly pops his head in to offer up this dig:

Two questions:

Why does your offer of money have strings attached? It sounds less like a "donation" than an attempt to buy your way back in.

Why do you want back in so much that you are willing essentially to beg and humiliate yourself in public like this?

Ouch, Dan! Also, I don't see that "strings attached" at all---at least not in the way that others do. It's not as if he was demanding that they actually be fair, for instance. Regardless, I'm sure Keene would be happy to accept his donation! We wouldn't be mean, either! Come on over to this MB, Joseph Smith!

In the end, the thread concludes the way that any good thread on the fittingly named MADboard should: with a mod (in this case Dan_G/Chaos) swooping in to close shop:

We don't allow personal threads on our boards. Also we ask if you have an axe to grind with FAIR please take it to them.

Chaos

The last bit---yet another attempt to distance FAIR from MAD---is a classic bit of spin. What a fun thread that was!