MERRY SMITHMAS!!!!

[_Mercury]

OK folks, just wanted to count the many things Joseph Smith has done for us all. Feel free to add to the list.

Warning: Assinine claims made by smith himself do not count, as you cannot trust a convicted moneydigger/bigamist. Expect much frivolity if you claim assinine things

* Rationalization for child rape
* A system of living that thoroughly messes you up
* Social dysfunction under the guise of emotion over rational thought
* The kirtland "anti-bank", a.k.a. the first pump and dump scam
* Stolen masonic ceremony and hokey handshakes believed to get you into heaven

There has to be more.

What are you thankful for this smithmas?

[_Sam Harris]

That his claims haven't spread past the inflated number of 12 million people on this earth.

[_Gazelam]

2 Cor. 4:4-6
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

D&C 135:3
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!


Lift up your head and cry out against God all you want Vegas, if you find misery in the gospel of Christ it is because you do not apply it. You are aware of the laws of God, and openly oppose them to your own self inflicted damnation.

You deny the Holy Ghost because you choose to forget the things he has testified of to you. Think back to the time before your wilfull rebellion and remember the spirit that testified to you.

Gaz

[_Jersey Girl]

Okay, Vegas...your post came up in another thread.

Please provide evidence that Joseph Smith:

1. Was a convicted bigamist.
2. Engaged in child rape.

Jersey Girl

[_Brackite]

Okay, Vegas...your post came up in another thread.

Please provide evidence that Joseph Smith:

1. Was a convicted bigamist.
2. Engaged in child rape.

Jersey Girl

Hi Jersey Girl,

I think that he is referring to the case of Joseph Smith getting 'married' to Helen Mar Kimball as "child rape." However there is No evidence that Joseph Smith had any sexual relationships wth Helen Mar Kiball. Historian Todd Compton wrote:

The Tanners made great mileage out of Joseph Smith's marriage to his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball. However, they failed to mention that I wrote that there is absolutely no evidence that there was any sexuality in the marriage, and I suggest that, following later practice in Utah, there may have been no sexuality. (p. 638) All the evidence points to this marriage as a primarily dynastic marriage.
(http://lds-mormon.com/compton.shtml)

However, there is indeed a lot of evidence that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with some of his other plural wives. Please Check out and See: http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insacred.htm
As for Joseph Smith having been convicted of Bigamy, he wasn't. And Joseph Smith technically probably was not a Bigamist. He didn't marry any of his plural wives in a civil and legal ceremony. He married his plural wives in Religious Ceremonies. Joseph Smith however was indeed a Polygamist, he was an earthly Polygamist and an Spiritual Polygamist.

[_Infymus]

3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only,

Lift up your head and cry out against God all you want Vegas, if you find misery in the gospel of Christ it is because you do not apply it. You are aware of the laws of God, and openly oppose them to your own self inflicted damnation.

You deny the Holy Ghost because you choose to forget the things he has testified of to you. Think back to the time before your wilfull rebellion and remember the spirit that testified to you.

Gaz

Thanks for making me throw up in my mouth a little this early morning.

What absolute tripe.

Tell me Gaz, did you feel sensations under your nipples while writing this sanctimonious Mormon testimonial tripe?

God, this kind of Mormon puke really ticks me off. How stereotypical of you Gaz, blame the Ex-Mormon for rebellion, or sin, or some other kind of label so that you the Mormon can justify in your mind why Vegas isn't following your God anymore.

Save your testimonials for your weekly cult meetings.

[_Mercury]

Okay, Vegas...your post came up in another thread.

Please provide evidence that Joseph Smith:

1. Was a convicted bigamist.
2. Engaged in child rape.

Jersey Girl

Convicted by a community that was turning against him.

Engaged in child rape with Helen Marr Kimball

[_Infymus]

Convicted by a community that was turning against him.

Engaged in child rape with Helen Marr Kimball

You're right Vegas, but because you cannot technically state that Joseph "raped" Helen, or his other teenage brides because he was (illegally) married to them and they "consented" to him, and therefore technically he did not "rape" them. Apologists will jump all over you by technical term alone, and if they can’t do that, they will look at your sentence structure and try and find blame in that.

In my mind, Joseph did indeed rape teenage brides if not physically - psychologically. He threatened one after another that if they did not marry him, an angel with a flaming sword would come and destroy them – who he personally claimed visited him over a dozen times stating so. He was charismatic and influential – and to a young teenage girl who was swallowing Mormonism – they would find it utterly difficult to say no to the pressures Joseph put upon them.

How many teenage brides did Joseph take? Seven documented by at least two sources. Two 14 year olds, two 16 year olds and three 17 year olds.

1. 1833, fanny Alger - 16 years old.
2. 1842, Sarah Ann Whitney - 17 years old.
3. 1843, Flora Ann Woodworth - 16 years old.
4. 1843 Lucy Walker - 17 years old.
5. 1843 Sarah Lawrence - 17 years old.
6. 1843 Helen Mar Kimball - 14 years old
7. 1843 Nancy Winchester - 14 years old

Deconstructor wrote:

Of all the gospel doctines Joseph Smith established, none received this much attention from God (polygamy). For God sent an angel to Joseph Smith over a dozen times to make sure he taught and practiced it.

This doctrine had the most saving power over any ordinance, because it guaranteed the salvation of an entire family for only one person's obedience to it.

That's right - Joseph Smith taught that only one person in a family needed to obey this doctrine in order to save their entire family. But if they rejected the doctrine, then their whole family would be damned.

That's exactly the offer the Prophet Joseph Smith gave to fourteen year-old Helen Mar Kimball.

Helen wrote:

"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he (my father) offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth."

"My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: how cruel this seemed to my mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder, for she had already taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more."
- Helen Mar Whitney Journal, Helen Mar Autobiography, Womans Exponent, 1880 and recently reprinted in A Woman's view.

In fact, Joseph Smith gave Helen only 24 hours to decide on whether or not to marry him. Of this, Helen wrote:
"[my father] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty four hours. ... I was sceptical - one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast me off, and this was the only convincing proof That I had of its being right."

The next morning, Joseph Smith finally appeared himself to explain the "law of Celestial Marriage" and claim his teen bride. In her memoir, Helen wrote, "After which he said to me, 'if you take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred.' This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."

Helen also writes about her mother's reaction to all of this:
"None but God and his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart - when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied 'If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say."

"She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had yet seen her fifteenth summer, following the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was hidden from me."

Helen thought her marriage to Joseph Smith was only dynastic. But to her surprise, it was more. Helen confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." ("Mormon Polygamy: A History by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.)

What would Mormons do today if the Church still practiced this doctrine? What if a Bishop or Stake President could extend salvation to an entire family by taking one of their teen daughters?

Why can't Mormons today recognize the moral depravity in Joseph Smith's actions towards his followers?

Did angels really force Joseph Smith into behaving like this?

See: http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_josephsmithpolyandrypolygamy.html#pub_-1976369635

It's Helen herself that wrote:
"Without any preliminaries, my father asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives."

"The first impulse was anger... My sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick he spoke , I replied to him, short and emphatically, NO I WOULDN'T! This is the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him."

"Then he (my father) commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle (of polygamy) and why it was again established upon the earth, etc."

"This first interview had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake. When he found (after the first outburst of displeasure for supposed injury) and I received it meekly, he took the first opportunity to introduce Sarah Ann to me as Joseph's Wife. This astonished me beyond measure."

"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he (my father) offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: how cruel this seemed to my mother whose heartstrings were already stretched unil they were ready to snap asunder, for she had already taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more."-
Helen Mar Whitney Journal, Helen Mar Autobiography, Womans Exponent, 1880 and recently reprinted in A Woman's view
Joseph Smith liked sex and he kept his pants unzipped again and again.

"Under The Banner Of Heaven" it mentions that Joseph Smith visited houses of prostitution.

From the book:

"According to Sarah Pratt, the wife of Mormon "apostle" Orson Pratt: "the prophet Joseph used to frequent houses of ill-fame. Mrs. White, a very pretty and attractive woman, once confessed to me that she made a business of it to be hospitable to the captains of the Mississippi steamboats. She told me that Joseph had made her acquaintance very soon after his arrival in Nauvoo, and that he had visited her dozens of times."

A look at the full testimony of Sister Pratt reveals even more details on the character of Joseph Smith:

"I have told you that the prophet Joseph used to frequent houses of ill-fame. Mrs. White, a very pretty and attractive woman, once confessed to me that she made a business of it to be hospitable to the captains of the Mississippi steamboats. She told me that Joseph had made her acquaintance very soon after his arrival in Nauvoo, and that he had visited her dozens of times."

"My husband (Apostle Orson Pratt) could not be induced to believe such things of his prophet. Seeing his obstinate incredulity, Mrs. White proposed to Mr. Pratt and myself to put us in a position where we could observe what was going on between herself and Joseph the prophet. We, however, declined this proposition."

"Next door to my house was a house of bad reputation. One single woman lived there, not very attractive. She used to be visited by people from Carthage whenever they came to Nauvoo. Joseph used to come on horseback, ride up to the house and tie his horse to a tree, many of which stood before the house. Then he would enter the house of the woman from the back. I have seen him do this repeatedly."

"Joseph Smith, the son of the prophet, and president of the re-organized Mormon church, paid me a visit, and I had a long talk with him. I saw that he was not inclined to believe the truth about his father, so I said to him: 'You pretend to have revelations from the Lord. Why don't you ask the Lord to tell you what kind of a man your father really was?' He answered: 'If my father had so many connections with women, where is the progeny?' I said to him: 'Your father had mostly intercourse with married women, and as to single ones, Dr. Bennett was always on hand, when anything happened."

See: http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_joesephsmith_section1.html#pub_666542679

Personally I believe Joseph Smith was a sexual predator and inevitably some teenage girls were caught up in his escapades. He created the doctrine of polygamy to satisfy his sexual desires.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Infymus

I had to write a reponse paper to Banner Under Heaven for one of my classes would you be interested in reading it.

Should I post it here on this site, cause I think you would be interested in reading it. I wrote it through a women's eyes
...I could not stop thinkig about Brenda while I was writing it,

Thanks

[_desert_vulture]

OK folks, just wanted to count the many things Joseph Smith has done for us all. Feel free to add to the list.

Warning: Assinine claims made by smith himself do not count, as you cannot trust a convicted moneydigger/bigamist. Expect much frivolity if you claim assinine things

* Rationalization for child rape
* A system of living that thoroughly messes you up
* Social dysfunction under the guise of emotion over rational thought
* The kirtland "anti-bank", a.k.a. the first pump and dump scam
* Stolen masonic ceremony and hokey handshakes believed to get you into heaven

There has to be more.

What are you thankful for this smithmas?

Merry Smithmas everyone! To properly commemorate Joseph Smith's birthday (Dec 23) I'd like to relate one of Joseph's all-time favorites: Moroni and a Monkey story . Pull up a chair and sit back as Joseph Smith weaves an incredible yarn about him "almost" getting the gold plates back from that mean old' treasure guardian, Moroni. I thought it would be a great story to commemorate Smithmas since I just discovered it today, on his birthday, about a year and a half into my disillusionment with Mormonism. Here's the background on the story, and the story itself (in bold):

"Here, then, is the finding of the plates, containing a new revelation from Heaven, and the modus operandi may seem to the Mormon, truly wonderful, and in character with that Being who upholds and sustains the Universe; but to the rational mind it can excite no other emotion than contempt for his species. The latter story was related by Lemon Copley. (who had been an elder of the society, and was at the time for aught that appeared) under oath, before two magistrates, of Painesville Township, on a trial where the prophet had sworn the peace against one of his seceding brethren.

Mr. Copely testified that after the Mormon breth[re]n arrived here from the Susquehannah, one of them, by the name of Joseph Knight, related to him a story as having been related to him by Joseph Smith, Jun. which excited some curiosity in his mind, he determined to ask Joseph more particularly about it, on the first opportunity. Not long after it was confirmed to him by Joseph himself, who again related it in the following manner: "After he had finished translating the Book of Mormon, he again buried up the plates in the side of a mountain, by command of the Lord; some time after this, he was going through a piece of woods, on a by-path, when he discovered an old man dressed in ordinary gray apparel, sitting upon a log, having in his hand or near by, a small box. On approaching him, he asked him what he had in his box. To which the old man replied, that he had a MONKEY; and for five coppers he might see it. Joseph answered, that he would not give a cent to see a monkey, for he had seen a hundred of them. He then asked the old man where he was going, who said he was going to Charzee. Joseph then passed on, and not recollecting any such place in that part of the country, began to ponder over the strange interview, and finally asked the Lord the meaning of it. The Lord told him that the man he saw was MORONI, with the plates, and if he had given him the five coppers, he might have got his plates again."

Ahh, the benefits of being born into Mormonism! There are so many wonderful holiday tales such as the "Moroni and a Monkey" story, to be thankful for, during this season. Thanks to AmberAle from FLAK for providing this story in appendix F of the William Swartzell journal, on ZCL http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/wiki/index.php/Mormonism_Exposed. Swartzell, a former Danite, who exposes the secret oaths and covenants of the Danites, became a NOM for a few days before literally escaping from the church. His story is an interesting read, for sure.

Merry Smithmas everyone!