Christian accountability

[_Roger Morrison]

From the Pontif's annual Christmas message:

The pontiff also urged people everywhere to not lose sight of their need for God in an age of modern technological marvels.


Wearing shimmering gold vestments and a golden mitre, the pontiff delivered his traditional "Urbi et Orbi" speech - Latin for "to the city and to the world" - from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica to a cheering crowd that has massed in the sunlit square below.


"With deep apprehension I think, on this festive day, of the Middle East, marked by so many grave crises and conflicts, and I express my hope that the way will be opened to a just and lasting peace," Benedict said, making a special mention of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


"I place in the hands of the divine Child of Bethlehem the indications of a resumption of dialogue between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which we have witnessed in recent days, and the hope of further encouraging developments," the pontiff added.

An awaited occassion in Catholicism. One that i imagine positively touches many nonCatholics as well. It seems to reveal compassion for those who suffer, and genuine concern for the injustices that cause their pain. Is he simply expressing Monarchial sympathy?

Wearing shimmering gold vestments and a golden mitre,

seems incongruent some how with Jesus' public attacks of 'riches'. The "eye-of-a needle & camel" parable? An obvious carry-over from the Judaism Jesus challenged at every turn.

"...the Middle East, marked by so many grave crises and conflicts..." is made so by the religious mythology, legend and fables that root those very issues! Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's sins in the name of "God" will forever haunt them, the "Middle East" and the rest of the world until truth and intelligence prevails over ignorance, superstition, un-"Godliness", arrogance and denial!

"(To) place in the hands of the divine Child of Bethlehem..." is an absurd cop-out of "these" problems not being taken hold of--in the name of that "Child"--by hands willing to take seriously the grown "Child's" message.
Waving hands in the air in holiness and piety does little but "fix" the unfortunate mis-led to enjoy some fleeting moments of euphoria doing nothing to address the concern of Jesus. HIS concerns have been side tracked by personal salvation as taught by every "Christian" sect and denomination unworthy of that label. Exceptions???

Why don't Christians get THE message: "It isn't about YOU and Heaven--it's about OTHERS and the Hell, here and now they experience in A CHRISTIAN society, at the hands of Christians!"

There is something to fear, as expounded by the doomers! I respectfully suggest check these out who think they have the keys. Ya might find they don't fit the lock... Mat 25:35-45, Mat7:21-23, Mat,15:8-9...

While the Papal news item twigged me, the RCC in no way stands alone in, or at the top of Compromised Christianity.

On the bright side, folks are getting smarter. Note the membership decline in some of the traditional, establishment churches... Praise "God"!! Roger, an' over :-)

[_truth dancer]

Why don't Christians get THE message: "It isn't about YOU and Heaven--it's about OTHERS and the Hell, here and now they experience in A CHRISTIAN society, at the hands of Christians!"

Wow... YES!!!

I listened to a Neurologist a few months ago who was also a priest or something along those lines) in the Episcopal church... he mentioned that once we focus on our personal desire to return to Heaven, we have missed the very message of Jesus which is, as you suggest, a call to help others and bring a world of sorrow to one of peace.

Merry Christmas... :-)

~dancer~

[_Roger Morrison]

Another quote from the Papal speech:

The pontiff also urged people everywhere to not lose sight of their need for God in an age of modern technological marvels.

Would this be the same "urge" advised during "the-darkages", "The Crusades", every war, every holacaust, every tragedy personal and collective which humanity is exposed to by nature working, or by our species administering injustice/evil since the cave/Genesis?

Why is it so difficult for the Pontiff, and every other Christian Church leader who preaches the same "get-back-to-God" rhetoric, to not see, and acknowledge with absolute praise and thanksgiving, that the "marvels of modern technology" are at the hand of "God"?

This "God" however is impartial, unprejudiced, unconditionally committed to serve/bless/reward consistantly any, and everyone who will apply the laws to which such rewards/blessings are connected/predicated. Ironically an individual/collective who is so rewarded doesn't even have to believe-in, worship or pray to the granter of such "marvels".

Nor does this "God" require robed, or unrobed, representatives, or places of worship be they humble or ostentatious. This "God", i repectfully suggest was introduced by Jesus some 2,000+/- years ago. Unfortunately the crucifixion (shooting) of the 'messanger' all but obliterated his "message" of justice, service, cooperation, charity/love, peace and goodwill.

The lamentations of the Pontiff, GB Hinckley, and other traditionalistic church leaders is understandable. However what they do not seem to understand is that they are more a-part-of than a solution-for the problems being worked upon by conscienced folks who are more in tune to the "good-news" than are they.

Such were the circumstances those 2,000+/- years ago when the man Jesus, and his cousin John cried repentance. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament reveals the sympathy Jesus had for the masses. And the more obvious contempt he had for the Scribes, Pharasees and Sadduces the leaders of the masses.

The parallel of the times seem undeniable to me. Self serving authoritarian aggressive leaders and illinformed, passive, submissive followers in sufficient numbers to maintain their leaders authority over them.

HOWEVER, to the consternation of their "Leaders" the "followers" are becoming better informed, less passive, more critical and will submit less to edicts than to well substantiated advice.

As this consequence of education supplants that of indoctriation the religious community will become more of a spiritual and social environment than a theological strong hold. A ripple effect that will have political consequences is inevitable. But, not as traditionally supportive of parochialism and nationalistic power and dominance.

The new-wave will be one founded upon natural laws ("God's";-) that are based on principles of empathy and justice rather than on indifference and avarice. Don't hold your breath. From a ripple to a wave to a tide...social evolution takes mind-change that requires laying to rest old minds that new one may emerge. A natural process: the decay of past generations fertilizing the future. A peaceful dying process that impatience facilitated by violent killing activity. A non-Christian practice rooted in Old Testament "eye-for-eye" dogma.

In this, Christianity is not only accountable, it is fundamental. IF we could just be rid of irrelevant "Fundamentalism"! Warm regards, Roger

Edited to congratulate myself on this being my 100th post: "Congratulation Roger, you're still here!" Guess i should thank Shades for that: "Thanks Doc!"

[_harmony]

The one dominant theme I've noticed in my years in the LDS church is the emphasis on authority. Yet our leaders do not understand even a tiny bit about the authority they supposedly hold. The so-called keys to the kingdom aren't authority and power. The keys of the kingdom are love and service. Jesus's gospel isn't about buying malls and city streets, worthiness or interviews, endless meetings, talks, temple ceremonies, or courts of love. Jesus' gospel is about loving our neighbors, helping the helpless, caring for the widowed and handicapped, giving of our abudance until there are no rich among us, serving those whom others turn their backs on. If we would be the peculiar people we could be, we'd stand out from main stream religion simply because we would serve God. Unfortunately, we are not peculiar at all. We teach our children to hate their neighbor, we're as materialistic as any, there is no accountability for the money given, our leaders are in this for the money and personal glory, and we give so little in comparison to our worth that we should be ashamed.

We should be ashamed at our collective and individual unwillingness to live the fullness of the gospel. If we were living it even the tiniest bit, we'd look much different than we do now. We'd feel much different than we do now. Our priorities would be much different than they are now. Our books would be open to the public. We wouldn't be spending billions on business and thousands on humanitarian efforts. If nothing else changed, that would be reversed. We'd open the doors of the temples and invite everyone inside. We'd embrace our history and point out our mistakes to everyone, and show how we've changed from that time to this. Our children would be taught what "through a glass darkly" means, and how that relates to our prophets. We would worship God, not prophets.

Pres Benson was right: this church isunder condemnation, although he got the reason wrong. We aren't under condemnation because we don't live the Book of Mormon. We're under condemnation because we don't live the fullness of the gospel which we have been given. We know what we're supposed to do, but our leaders don't lead us in the right direction, and we follow all too willingly, when we know we're on the wrong path. Those of us who stick it out, trying in our own small way to change the direction of the Titanic/LDS church, risk being thrown overboard/excommunicated every day.

It's raining today; the sky is dark gray. My apologies for my equally dark thoughts.

[_Sam Harris]

Roger thanks for your contributions to this board on something other than Mormonism, LOL. Give us something to think about instead of fight about.

I think that the Christian community really needs an overhaul. If we think that we're the way, we're really screwing up our presentation. You are right, many of the problems in the world today are due to religous superstition, misinformation, and superiority complexes. And we as believers aren't making the world any better...as a whole. I know there are people out there who want to institute positive change in alignment with their beliefs...without being ostentatious and disrespectful. But it's difficult (the positive change part).

The term "God's chosen people" has been so misused ever since the term was coined. People use that term to denote a sort of country club mentality, a "nah nah nah nah nah, God loves us and not you" behavior. But God's chosen people in the true spiritual and biblical sense were to be a people who represented God to the world.

Oh how we have messed that one up.

I for one am glad to see an upsurgence of churches who are breaking away from tradition, where the message and whether or not it penetrates is more important than what you wear, or how much you tithe. But we have a long way to go. One of the classes I took this past semester touched on the issues you have raised a bit. And it never occurred to me that you could be Christian in the most complete sense and yet be respectful of other faiths and worldviews, be environmentally conscious, and even be able to live among material things and not be consumed by them. The last is hard here in DC. Either you have the cushy desk job (and sacrifice your sanity for it), or you live with 18 other people.

I think the Catholic church has undergone a lot of changes over the years. When investigating Catholicism a few years back, I noticed a change in the way services were presented as opposed to what I experienced in Catholic school as a child. Still, I don't really agree with the wealth that the Pope himself sits on. Still, Catholic charities in this area has done a lot of (visible) good, so that's a comforting thing to me.

'Nuff said, we got a long way to go. Keep 'em comin Roger.

[_Sam Harris]

Another quote from the Papal speech:

The pontiff also urged people everywhere to not lose sight of their need for God in an age of modern technological marvels.

Would this be the same "urge" advised during "the-darkages", "The Crusades", every war, every holacaust, every tragedy personal and collective which humanity is exposed to by nature working, or by our species administering injustice/evil since the cave/Genesis?

Why is it so difficult for the Pontiff, and every other Christian Church leader who preaches the same "get-back-to-God" rhetoric, to not see, and acknowledge with absolute praise and thanksgiving, that the "marvels of modern technology" are at the hand of "God"?

This "God" however is impartial, unprejudiced, unconditionally committed to serve/bless/reward consistantly any, and everyone who will apply the laws to which such rewards/blessings are connected/predicated. Ironically an individual/collective who is so rewarded doesn't even have to believe-in, worship or pray to the granter of such "marvels".

Nor does this "God" require robed, or unrobed, representatives, or places of worship be they humble or ostentatious. This "God", i repectfully suggest was introduced by Jesus some 2,000+/- years ago. Unfortunately the crucifixion (shooting) of the 'messanger' all but obliterated his "message" of justice, service, cooperation, charity/love, peace and goodwill.

The lamentations of the Pontiff, GB Hinckley, and other traditionalistic church leaders is understandable. However what they do not seem to understand is that they are more a-part-of than a solution-for the problems being worked upon by conscienced folks who are more in tune to the "good-news" than are they.

Such were the circumstances those 2,000+/- years ago when the man Jesus, and his cousin John cried repentance. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament reveals the sympathy Jesus had for the masses. And the more obvious contempt he had for the Scribes, Pharasees and Sadduces the leaders of the masses.

The parallel of the times seem undeniable to me. Self serving authoritarian aggressive leaders and illinformed, passive, submissive followers in sufficient numbers to maintain their leaders authority over them.

HOWEVER, to the consternation of their "Leaders" the "followers" are becoming better informed, less passive, more critical and will submit less to edicts than to well substantiated advice.

As this consequence of education supplants that of indoctriation the religious community will become more of a spiritual and social environment than a theological strong hold. A ripple effect that will have political consequences is inevitable. But, not as traditionally supportive of parochialism and nationalistic power and dominance.

The new-wave will be one founded upon natural laws ("God's";-) that are based on principles of empathy and justice rather than on indifference and avarice. Don't hold your breath. From a ripple to a wave to a tide...social evolution takes mind-change that requires laying to rest old minds that new one may emerge. A natural process: the decay of past generations fertilizing the future. A peaceful dying process that impatience facilitated by violent killing activity. A non-Christian practice rooted in Old Testament "eye-for-eye" dogma.

In this, Christianity is not only accountable, it is fundamental. IF we could just be rid of irrelevant "Fundamentalism"! Warm regards, Roger

Edited to congratulate myself on this being my 100th post: "Congratulation Roger, you're still here!" Guess i should thank Shades for that: "Thanks Doc!"

The answer to your intial question is to me, religious dualism. Most people who are religious (not to be confused with spiritual) tend to separate life into two sections, I have come to learn this past semester. And it makes sense, too. People who are religious/pious separate life into "sacred" and "profane". The only things they usually put in the "sacred" category are things like church, anything church-related, and perhaps spiritually themed music, art, books, etc. Anything outside this is profane. It's "wordly". But God created this world, and everything in it, and as one of my textbooks stated (The Transforming Vision, Walsh & Middleton), sin is but a parasite to God's good creation, it cannot exist on its own. Yes there are bad things in this world, but the foundation of everything is good! Why then do we separate God from everything else?

I think the religious leaders you mentioned are trying to move away from technology, because they see that some people have pushed God out of the picture and looked at technology on its own instead of seeing the knowledge they have as God-given. But the pope and Hinckley and the like are only exacerbating this problem by not emphasizing that God is the author of what we have, and we are but inspirated by him, rather these religious leaders are trying to draw us away from things that can benefit us greatly.

This weekend I caught sight of someone rejecting modern medicine at the hands of a religious leader. Albeit, she's ancient, but still...the man she seeks is no physician. My maternal grandmother belongs to what I call the Mormons of the Jewish tradition. They have a prophet too, they call him "The Leader". Creeps me out. My grandmother needs knee surgery. She walks in pain every day. But she refuses to go through the operation until her leader tells her what he thinks. Is he a doctor? Is he paying the bills? Goodness... That was an eye opener to me this weekend, how people will willingly reject what could benefit them for what or who they percieve God to be. Sad, really.

[_wenglund]

Why don't Christians get THE message: "It isn't about YOU and Heaven--it's about OTHERS and the Hell, here and now they experience in A CHRISTIAN society, at the hands of Christians!"

Did you intend to be this one-sided and intollerant in your stereotyping of Christians?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

Why don't Christians get THE message: "It isn't about YOU and Heaven--it's about OTHERS and the Hell, here and now they experience in A CHRISTIAN society, at the hands of Christians!"

Did you intend to be this one-sided and intollerant in your stereotyping of Christians?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think he's talking about Christian society, as opposed to individuals, Wade.

[_wenglund]

Why don't Christians get THE message: "It isn't about YOU and Heaven--it's about OTHERS and the Hell, here and now they experience in A CHRISTIAN society, at the hands of Christians!"

Did you intend to be this one-sided and intollerant in your stereotyping of Christians?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think he's talking about Christian society, as opposed to individuals, Wade.

So?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Jason Bourne]

The one dominant theme I've noticed in my years in the LDS church is the emphasis on authority.

Yes. Follow the brethren, keep your eyes on the brethren, follow the prophet.

Yet our leaders do not understand even a tiny bit about the authority they supposedly hold. The so-called keys to the kingdom aren't authority and power.

Well they are supposed to be the authority of God and the priesthood to administer ordinances.

The keys of the kingdom are love and service.

Now you are striking on the weightier matters of the gospel or law. Yea, these are the things that most of us, LDS and others really have trouble doing.

Jesus's gospel isn't about buying malls and city streets, worthiness or interviews, endless meetings, talks, temple ceremonies, or courts of love. Jesus' gospel is about loving our neighbors, helping the helpless, caring for the widowed and handicapped, giving of our abudance until there are no rich among us, serving those whom others turn their backs on.

I do agree. So many times in the endless meetings for leadership training, PECs, councils and on and on I wonder that we can go to these meetings and feel like we are magnifying our calling or living our religion. It seems like we go to some boring meeting just to satisfy ourselves that we are doing something. Oh sure, some planning and organizing in good and needed. But what more could we do with our time??

If we would be the peculiar people we could be, we'd stand out from main stream religion simply because we would serve God. Unfortunately, we are not peculiar at all. We teach our children to hate their neighbor,

You are going overboard here. We do not teach our children to hate their neighbor.

we're as materialistic as any

,

Some are, some are not.

there is no accountability for the money given, our leaders are in this for the money

I often here that leaders are in it for money. This is poppy cock. Where is evidence of this? It seems most the GAs, have fairly modest middle class lives. Some have money that they may have made in their career. Now I know we do not know what they make. My guess is it is similar to what equal jobs in business might be. But I see no reason to believe the GAs are padding their pockets in some devious or major way.

and personal glory, and we give so little in comparison to our worth that we should be ashamed.

Some may like the glory. What we (meaning the LDS Church gives-well we just do not know that do we. But it does take a lot of money to runs a Church and maintain the buildings we meet in. The LDS Church also tends to use its buildings to the max, putting many wards in one building when the population justifies it. They also give a lot in FO assistance to members of the Church and even to non members some. Do you take that into account in humanitarian aid?

We should be ashamed at our collective and individual unwillingness to live the fullness of the gospel. If we were living it even the tiniest bit, we'd look much different than we do now.

While we can do better I do believe many members do good and do service and seek for ways to bless those less fortunate. I think you are being overly cynical here.

We'd feel much different than we do now. Our priorities would be much different than they are now. Our books would be open to the public. We wouldn't be spending billions on business and thousands on humanitarian efforts.

Well we know we have spent 100's of millions on humanitarian aid. And again, that does not take into account FO assistance. Also, I am not sure if you have ever visited the Humanitarian aid center in SLC. You should. You might change your tune a bit.

If nothing else changed, that would be reversed. We'd open the doors of the temples and invite everyone inside. We'd embrace our history and point out our mistakes to everyone, and show how we've changed from that time to this. Our children would be taught what "through a glass darkly" means, and how that relates to our prophets. We would worship God, not prophets.

We do not worship the prophets.

Pres Benson was right: this church isunder condemnation, although he got the reason wrong. We aren't under condemnation because we don't live the Book of Mormon. We're under condemnation because we don't live the fullness of the gospel which we have been given. We know what we're supposed to do, but our leaders don't lead us in the right direction, and we follow all too willingly, when we know we're on the wrong path. Those of us who stick it out, trying in our own small way to change the direction of the Titanic/LDS church, risk being thrown overboard/excommunicated every day.

Oh come now.