Take It From The Top...

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_harmony
_Emeritus
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:
That's not telling me "why." What sorts of benefits could there possibly be to remove evidence of the plates? The plates (theoretically) existed physically on earth for what approx a couple of 1,000 years, being moved about and put into different locations? Why should they be removed physically from earth, what sort of advantage could be had by removing them, in your estimation?



I didn't tell you why for a specific reason, and that reason was to allow you to think about the answer a little and look for the reason yourself, as the reason and purpose of removing the plates is implied, or wrapped within my partial response.

As a hint, If I was God, that is precisely how I would handle the matter, based on the kind of relationship with my children, in these matters, that is necessary to thier growth and progression toward exaltation. Its not about empirical evidence or lack of it in spiritual matters such as this; its about the first principle of the Gospel.

Loran


Oh balderdash, Loran. If that were the case, we'd not have the Rosetta Stone nor the Dead Sea Scrolls. Good grief, can't you come up with something better than that?
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

Coggins7 wrote:
ROFL, see the his thread on poop. Like I said, some sickos like to stick their fingers in it, while pointing out that it exists.

Loran, neither you nor Wade contribute anything to this board past a very flagrant display of psychological masturbation.
\


GIMR, go play wiith your arc welder and leave us alone for a while.




You go play with your arc welder LORANCOGGYBOY and leave US alone

Go weld your mouth together and then your computer shut and the weld yourself into that room you are in
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Oh balderdash, Loran. If that were the case, we'd not have the Rosetta Stone nor the Dead Sea Scrolls. Good grief, can't you come up with something better than that?



The last time I checked, neither the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Rosetta Stone (?) have anything to do with the restoration or are considered pivitol aspects of it. Stop Harmony! Those aren't your high blood pressure pills, those are you're anti-depressants. Wait Harmony! Wait, wait...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


Loran
_marg

Post by _marg »

Coggins7 wrote:
That's not telling me "why." What sorts of benefits could there possibly be to remove evidence of the plates? The plates (theoretically) existed physically on earth for what approx a couple of 1,000 years, being moved about and put into different locations? Why should they be removed physically from earth, what sort of advantage could be had by removing them, in your estimation?



I didn't tell you why for a specific reason, and that reason was to allow you to think about the answer a little and look for the reason yourself, as the reason and purpose of removing the plates is implied, or wrapped within my partial response.

As a hint, If I was God, that is precisely how I would handle the matter, based on the kind of relationship with my children, in these matters, that is necessary to thier growth and progression toward exaltation. Its not about empirical evidence or lack of it in spiritual matters such as this; its about the first principle of the Gospel.

Loran


How would hiding the plates/evidence be a necessity for "growth and progress toward exaltation"?
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

marg wrote:How would hiding the plates/evidence be a necessity for "growth and progress toward exaltation"?


It is weird, isn't it, that obvious evidentiary problems are for our growth and progress, but the little stuff, like chiasmus, is solid proof.
_MormonMendacity
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Post by _MormonMendacity »

Runtu wrote:
marg wrote:How would hiding the plates/evidence be a necessity for "growth and progress toward exaltation"?


It is weird, isn't it, that obvious evidentiary problems are for our growth and progress, but the little stuff, like chiasmus, is solid proof.

It's also interesting that Loran starts an some threads as diversions so that he doesn't have to address th evidentiary problems with anything but ... oh ... were his words again? They had such intellectual brio..."Poop"?
Last edited by Nomomo on Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Runtu wrote:
marg wrote:How would hiding the plates/evidence be a necessity for "growth and progress toward exaltation"?


It is weird, isn't it, that obvious evidentiary problems are for our growth and progress, but the little stuff, like chiasmus, is solid proof.


Maybe Loran has an explanation which isn't weird, I'll have to see. I'm assuming Loran acknowledges we have brains which can reason logically to some extent and that we shouldn't simply accept what we are told by others. In some cases we don't have much choice, and must rely on authority who have greater knowledge or expertise than we may have. In this case I'm asking Loran what his reasoning is, not what some authority may have told him.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:
Oh balderdash, Loran. If that were the case, we'd not have the Rosetta Stone nor the Dead Sea Scrolls. Good grief, can't you come up with something better than that?



The last time I checked, neither the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Rosetta Stone (?) have anything to do with the restoration or are considered pivitol aspects of it. Stop Harmony! Those aren't your high blood pressure pills, those are you're anti-depressants. Wait Harmony! Wait, wait...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


Loran


Uh huh. Foolish, Loran. Why is it that God left the Dead Sea Scrolls? All of the books of the Bible are represented, except Esther. Why wouldn't God take them away.

You're going to have to come up with a better argument than that, to cover Joseph's butt about the unseen gold plates.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Loran in your first post you wrote and a portion I bolded:

"The next track to pursue would be detailed, point for point examination of the examples of deception critics claim demonstrate mendacity on the part of either Joseph or the modern church to see, under the stern light of philosophical and scholarly rigor, if they hold up to inspection. We will here, as TBM's, not attempt to conclusively disprove each and every point (as this is neither possible nor necessary) but only conclusively disprove where such is clearly marked and with historical questions that cannot be unambiguously laid to rest, provide plausible explanations of such a nature that the criticisms are rendered inert; they should be, to a fair minded observer, placed in sufficient doubt that the two sides can agree to disagree without dogmatic assertions on either side but with the critics at least giving the benefit of the doubt to Joseph and the Church when sufficient counter evidence has been put on the table to either logically and/or historically render the example or criticism plausibly mistaken."

I have assumed you are sincere. You have said you will provide "plausible explanations." You did not say in the above that you would simply assert what is to be considered true. Please keep in mind, truth by assertion is NOT providing "plausible explanation." It is NOT providing the "fair minded observer" with good reasoning in order to evaluate whether or not J.Smith lied about his claims. So Loran, how would hiding the plates/evidence be a necessity for "growth and progress toward exaltation"?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Loran in your first post you wrote and a portion I bolded:

"The next track to pursue would be detailed, point for point examination of the examples of deception critics claim demonstrate mendacity on the part of either Joseph or the modern church to see, under the stern light of philosophical and scholarly rigor, if they hold up to inspection. We will here, as TBM's, not attempt to conclusively disprove each and every point (as this is neither possible nor necessary) but only conclusively disprove where such is clearly marked and with historical questions that cannot be unambiguously laid to rest, provide plausible explanations of such a nature that the criticisms are rendered inert; they should be, to a fair minded observer, placed in sufficient doubt that the two sides can agree to disagree without dogmatic assertions on either side but with the critics at least giving the benefit of the doubt to Joseph and the Church when sufficient counter evidence has been put on the table to either logically and/or historically render the example or criticism plausibly mistaken."

I have assumed you are sincere. You have said you will provide "plausible explanations." You did not say in the above that you would simply assert what is to be considered true. Please keep in mind, truth by assertion is NOT providing "plausible explanation." It is NOT providing the "fair minded observer" with good reasoning in order to evaluate whether or not J.Smith lied about his claims. So Loran, how would hiding the plates/evidence be a necessity for "growth and progress toward exaltation"?


Because, marg, as in so many other things, the availability of objective, observable, empirical proof of the claims of the gospel would destroy the necessity of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and all the challenges, difficulties, and intellectual, psycholgical, and spiritual struggle this intails and implies.

It would also end our eternal progression within the context of a "mortal probation", as understood in church teaching, as no further process of growth embedded in a background of potential doubt, and challeges to one's faith which cannot be simply refuted by pointing ostensively or empirically to plates, God, the Ark of The Covenant, or whatever, would be possible.

We know their was a T. Rex because we have his bones. We can know there is a God, with certainty, through direct communicatin with him, or revelation. We don;t see God empirically; he doesn't come to church physically, walk around the streets and teach, or throw lightning bolts at the wicked in plain view of CBS Evening News. But if he did, the Plan of Salvation, as understood in the restored Gospel, would be, for all intents and purposes, negated, and our purpose for being here short circuited. I don't need to have faith in the existence of T. Rex, not only because we have proof of its existence empirically, but more to the point, because the existence of T. Rex has no relevance or importance whatever to the great questions of the human condition, which normally are set out as who am I, why am I here, and where am I going?

In other words: What is the ultimate metaphysical nature of the self, what is the meaning and purpose of existence and the self's embeddedness in it, and what happens to the individual and his/her consciousness after the death of the physical body?

The existence of Dinosaurs, or of Quasars, or of the laws of Newtonian mechanics, or the functioning of the endocrine system, or the mating habits of Trap Door Spiders, are all interesting, and all demonstatable empirically, but have nothing to do with those great questions of the human conditon that the Gospel exists to answer and with respect to which, faith is required both to aquire and maintain.

Loran
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