Clever wordplay to downplay priesthood sexism? ...

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

In the church, as women are concerned, we are given one choice: motherhood. No other choices are available, IF one wants to be in compliance. Oh sure, we pay lip service to other circumstances that can intervene (such as death or injury to a spouse or the woman never being asked to get married), but by and large, women are supposed to be mothers, period. We stay at home, we nurture the children, we keep the home fires burning, and we'd better damn well be happy with it... or we can sit down and shut up if we aren't. This recycled 50's nonsense is direct from the latest and greatest: the Proclamation on the Family. There is no give there; there is no escape; it's motherhood, period. Eternal life on earth, complete with minivans.



Just another clear indication that:

1. You're Mormon credentials are not from an accredited institution and

2. You're a typical bitter, sour, dispeptic liberal, wallowing in all the can't, tropes, and shibboleths of the post sixties Boomer Zietgeist that has brought our culture and civiliaztion to its present pearch on a precipice above a truly illimitable void.

You're actual knowledge, despite claims of active Mormon membership, of Momon teachings, is either so vanishingly small, or so ideologcally preconceived, that the actual church, as seen through your eyes, is unrecognizable, and I've been in it all of my life.

Loran
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Coggins7 wrote:Your dead wrong on the doctrinal justifications for woman not holding the Priesthood. The writings of the GA.s of the church over genrations are full of detailed explanations for this practice regarding church governance.

References?

Unlike the Priesthood ban, which despite being taught in an authoritative manner, was, like any other number of concepts taught in an authoritative manner, was never official church doctrine binding on the Saints ....

It sure was. Go re-read the 1949 FP statement on the matter, which expressly states that the ban is a "commandment" of God. It doesn't get any more 'doctrinal' than that.

The lack of Priesthood among woman is established church doctrine, and has been for quite a long time. Its quite biblical, and one need not be a degreed biblical scholar to find warrant for it in the New Testament, as well as for the concept of the presiding leadership role of the man in the home. So, here we have a 2,000 year history of a patriarchal order being observed within the Lord's church, which means from biblical times to the present, this was something else simply restored by the Prophet, and has no relation to cultural norms (even though, similar cutural norms, although corrupted, had always existed side by side with the authentic gospel teachings).

There it is, folks! Loran finally admits the real reason for denying the priesthood to women: 'That's just the way its always been!'

This isn't to say patriarchy isn't a western cultural norm. Its to say that those particular norms have no direct relation to the patriarchal order as understood and observed within the church and kingdom.

BS; the partiarchal order has everything to do with 'that's just the way its always been.'

Woman lead all througout the church, and, truth be told, they lead the men who lead the church, from the home to the ward to the Presidency of the Chuch.

You're joking, right? If not, then you're simply being patronizing toward LDS women. Just keep digging your hole deeper ...
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Coggins7 wrote:You're a typical bitter, sour, dispeptic liberal, wallowing in all the can't, tropes, and shibboleths of the post sixties Boomer Zietgeist that has brought our culture and civiliaztion to its present pearch on a precipice above a truly illimitable void.

Can you say that fast 5 times? ;) Who'll be the first one here to use this in his/her tagline?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Just another clear indication that:

1. You're Mormon credentials are not from an accredited institution and


ROTFL. Indeed. Mine come from the Idaho Falls temple, 1971. It's hard to find a more accredited Mormon institution than that one.

2. You're a typical bitter, sour, dispeptic liberal, wallowing in all the can't, tropes, and shibboleths of the post sixties Boomer Zietgeist that has brought our culture and civiliaztion to its present pearch on a precipice above a truly illimitable void.


Wow. ROTFL. I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type!

You're actual knowledge, despite claims of active Mormon membership, of Momon teachings, is either so vanishingly small, or so ideologcally preconceived, that the actual church, as seen through your eyes, is unrecognizable, and I've been in it all of my life.

Loran


Yeah, I know. 35 years of studying sources like the scriptures, searching LDS.org, repeatedly going through the temple, studying the lesson manuals, and assorted conference talks and what does that get me? Oh yeah... a different perspective than you. Don't ya hate it when someone's experience is different from yours?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Yeah, I know. 35 years of studying sources like the scriptures, searching LDS.org, repeatedly going through the temple, studying the lesson manuals, and assorted conference talks and what does that get me? Oh yeah... a different perspective than you. Don't ya hate it when someone's experience is different from yours?



No, it just makes you a perfect ass. But that's another story Im sure.
_harmony
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:
Yeah, I know. 35 years of studying sources like the scriptures, searching LDS.org, repeatedly going through the temple, studying the lesson manuals, and assorted conference talks and what does that get me? Oh yeah... a different perspective than you. Don't ya hate it when someone's experience is different from yours?



No, it just makes you a perfect ass. But that's another story Im sure.


Now THAT definitely qualifies as serious, substantive discussion. And you wonder why I refuse to divulge personal information? You have no self-control, Loran. You're a loose cannon, and I have enough trouble with stalkers as it is.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

As to my writing style: that's how I write, and that's how its going to be, and if it gives you a headache, fine, the way I write, when I do so seriously, is inteded to make you think, not just to squirt out pat answers.


Your style is horrible. Go ahead and continue with it though. It is rather funny to read. Many of the words you use are wasted and add nothing to what you are trying to say. It does not give me a headache, and it does not make me think. I read much more difficult information every day in my work, and I write. When I write I need to communicate information to others that is tough for a person not in my business to understand. So I take complexity and simplify. There is a term applied to writing called a fog index. Simply put it is based on the number of words per sentence. Your fog index is about as high as it gets. So if you are trying to get people to think you are failing. Rather, it makes some of your posts, well, rather silly. Plod on!!!



Your dead wrong on the doctrinal justifications for woman not holding the Priesthood. The writings of the GA.s of the church over genrations are full of detailed explanations for this practice regarding church governance. Unlike the Priesthood ban, which despite being taught in an authoritative manner, was, like any other number of concepts taught in an authoritative manner, was never official church doctrine binding on the Saints (and I'm not claiming that their are not substantive aspects of the explanation of the ban that are not doctrinal. There are. I'm also not saying that the Lord might not ultimately have been the source of the ban. He may have been. I'm also not saying that all of the docrtinal details of the explanation were in fact, inspired. They may not have been).
\


I have never seem any reason that women do not have the priesthood other then that is the way God designed it and they have different roles, as well as comments about men not being able to bear children.

The lack of Priesthood among woman is established church doctrine, and has been for quite a long time. Its quite biblical, and one need not be a degreed biblical scholar to find warrant for it in the New Testament, as well as for the concept of the presiding leadership role of the man in the home. So, here we have a 2,000 year history of a patriarchal order being observed within the Lord's church, which means from biblical times to the present, this was something else simply restored by the Prophet, and has no relation to cultural norms (even though, similar cutural norms, although corrupted, had always existed side by side with the authentic gospel teachings).


Is it established Church doctrine like the ban for blacks was? Can it change? What would you think if it did?

This isn't to say patriarchy isn't a western cultural norm. Its to say that those particular norms have no direct relation to the patriarchal order as understood and observed within the church and kingdom.


Is patriarchy a result of what God really wants or a result of social developments over thousands of years that may now be in flux?

As to your idea that woman don't lead, this is utter nonesense. Woman lead all througout the church, and, truth be told, they lead the men who lead the church, from the home to the ward to the Presidency of the Chuch.


Women lead subject to approval from men. In the Church before correlation the leaders of the Relief Society and YW organizations actually had more autonomy then to lead. But after correlation everything comes under priesthood leadership. Can a Relief Society president call her own successor?


If you don't understand what I mean by this Jason, then there's probably little more I can say on this subject you will grasp at this time.


I understand that you have said little other then that is just the way it is.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Coggins7 wrote:
Yeah, I know. 35 years of studying sources like the scriptures, searching LDS.org, repeatedly going through the temple, studying the lesson manuals, and assorted conference talks and what does that get me? Oh yeah... a different perspective than you. Don't ya hate it when someone's experience is different from yours?



No, it just makes you a perfect ass. But that's another story Im sure.


Now now Loren. You are coming apart at the seems here.

Is this what Jesus would have you do?

by the way, I wonder if P will condemn you for your anominity? You may not be a Church critic but you certianly are not representing the Church in the way the LDS leaders want us to. Is that why you remain anonymous?

But I know you can do better. Try not to let your anger get the best of you. You make decent points quite often. Just not on this thread.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

You know, when it comes to the issue of priesthood and women, I am ok with someone saying they just believe that the Lord wants it that way and that if it is too change then the Lord will reveal it. Pres. Hanckley has said just that. He makes no major defense other then that. If one believes that it is ok. I am not sure why it is that way, and I think that it will change someday. Personally, I just see it more as, like the ban for black, as policy and social issues. I think the Church may change this in 30-50 years from now.

But I could be wrong as well.

But the OP on this thread is valid, the Church in it PR concerns is softening the language.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Hasnt this exact same question been answered on like 4 other threads now withen the last 3 months?

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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