If the Prophet Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham

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_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

The Nauvoo Neighbor, in June 1843. On this broadside, containing facsimiles of the plates, we find the following:
"The contents of the Plates, together with a Fac-Simile of the same, will be published in the 'Times and Seasons,' as soon as the translation is completed."


Another curious item is why historians and apologists had long maintained that the kinderhook plates were real - until 1980 - when it was proven that they were in fact a fraud.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

The Dude wrote:
maklelan wrote:No one has taken this seriously for decades.


Spoken like a true apologist.

maklelan wrote:The argument was laid to rest by those inside and outside the church decades ago. It's a joke that people still want to bring it up.


Spoken like a true apologist.

maklelan wrote:Everyone else bedded this down a long time ago.


Spoken like a true apologist.


Response other than insult? None. Spoken like a true critic of the church.
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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

maklelan wrote:
The Dude wrote:
maklelan wrote:No one has taken this seriously for decades.


Spoken like a true apologist.

maklelan wrote:The argument was laid to rest by those inside and outside the church decades ago. It's a joke that people still want to bring it up.


Spoken like a true apologist.

maklelan wrote:Everyone else bedded this down a long time ago.


Spoken like a true apologist.


Response other than insult? None. Spoken like a true critic of the church.


You consider "true apologist" to be an insult?
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Who Knows wrote:The Nauvoo Neighbor, in June 1843. On this broadside, containing facsimiles of the plates, we find the following:
"The contents of the Plates, together with a Fac-Simile of the same, will be published in the 'Times and Seasons,' as soon as the translation is completed."


Another curious item is why historians and apologists had long maintained that the kinderhook plates were real - until 1980 - when it was proven that they were in fact a fraud.


They were real (in the sense that they existed and continue to exist to this day). The contrast, of course, is to the golden plates, which we no longer have, if they were ever real.

The Kinderhood plates were just fake. The golden plates may have been fake too, but since they no long exist, if they ever did, we are left with a big fat zero.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

That the plates had aroused interest in Nauvoo is evident from two accounts that were not published until years later. In a letter written to a friend on Sunday, May 7, Parley P. Pratt said: “A large number of Citizens have seen them and compared the characters with those on the Egyptian papyrus which is now in this city.” A few lines previously, he had begun his comment on the plates as follows:

“Six plates having the appearance of Brass have lately been dug out of a mound by a gentleman in Pike Co. Illinois. They are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah. His bones were found in the same vase (made of Cement). Part of the bones were 15 ft. underground.” 16

This calls to mind the statement from the William Clayton journal referred to above:

“I have seen six brass plates which were found in Adams County by some persons who were digging in a mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth which was nine feet high. … President J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found, and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.”

It seems, then, that there was considerable talk about the plates in Nauvoo—and apparently as much misinformation and hearsay was current among people as there was fact. Pratt heard of a discovery in Pike County; Clayton said Adams County. Clayton said that the find was made six feet underground; Pratt, fifteen. Elder Pratt spoke of a cement vase—an item mentioned in no other account. Clayton mentioned a skeleton nine feet tall—also unmentioned in any other account. Clayton said that the plates gave a history of an Egyptian; Pratt mentioned a Jaredite.


The first facsimiles of the Kinderhook plates appeared in this broadside published 24 June 1843 by the Nauvoo Neighbor. The box indicates the characters on the existing plate shown in Figures 2, 3, and 4 (see pages 70 and 71). The horizontal stroke at the bottom of the left-hand character is actually a dent in the original plate that was interpreted as part of the character by the person who made the facsimile.

The elements that these two accounts have in common suggest a basic jist to the hearsay stories circulating in Nauvoo and also that Joseph Smith with others saw and wondered about the nature of the material that had been brought to Nauvoo. But there is, obviously, leagues of difference between an actual translation of sacred records and a consideration of artifacts of uncertain origin—the former requiring study, prayer, and revelation; the latter characterized perhaps by an examination for points of similarity, etc., in a setting where various suggestions are likely aired by those present and elaborated on as discussion continued. And the actual presence of William Clayton or Parley P. Pratt in any discussion on the topic with Joseph Smith is simply unknown.

It is hard to imagine that the Prophet Joseph Smith wouldn’t have been intrigued by the plates. When they were first shown to him, he may well have noted certain correspondence between some characters on the plates and “reformed Egyptian” and contemplated the possibility of authenticity and translation, as the Charlotte Haven letter suggests. 17 But how much of the conjecture that was current in Nauvoo at the time might be attributable to him would be a speculation in itself, impossible to verify from the available accounts. The one account that was published in the Times and Seasons, whose editors were equally as intimate with Joseph Smith as William Clayton and Parley P. Pratt, could only report that “Mr. Smith has had those plates, what his opinion concerning them is we have not yet ascertained.”

The central issue in the whole question of Joseph Smith’s involvement in the Kinderhook plate episode is that the expected “translation” did not appear. And this fact may well explain the characteristic that has made this hoax most interesting—that it was never carried to completion. That the Kinderhook plates were not authentic artifacts is no longer in doubt; but if the plates were faked, why wasn’t the hoax revealed right away?

It has been suggested that the whole Kinderhook plate incident was, as Wilbur Fugate said in his 1878 and 1879 letters, a heavy-handed, frontier-style “joke.” On the other hand, the conspirators’ objective might have been more pointed—to produce a bogus set of plates and then reveal the hoax in a shower of ridicule after the Prophet made a purported “translation.” In either case, they were frustrated in their scheme because no translation ever appeared. In fact, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever concluded the plates were genuine, other than conflicting statements from members who hoped that a translation would come forth—and in fact no evidence that the Prophet manifested real interest in the “discovery” after his initial viewing of the plates. The statement taken from William Clayton’s journal didn’t appear until September 1856 in Salt Lake City’s Deseret News. At that point, time itself had eroded away the opportunity for a hearty joke, if that were the hoaxers’ intent; and the absence of an actual translation in spite of the Clayton entry in the “History of Joseph Smith” could only have added to their frustrations—assuming that the hoaxers even knew of the Deseret News account, which appeared thirteen years later and a thousand miles away.

Another possible explanation for the hoax never having been carried through may lie in Robert Wiley’s desire to sell the plates as genuine artifacts. For him to have exposed the hoax before the attempted sale would, of course, have scuttled any negotiations; and to expose it afterward may have landed the sellers and conspirators in jail for attempted fraud—turning the tables and making them the object of ridicule instead of Joseph Smith.

Significantly, there is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. And this brings us to the other side of the story, for those of us who believe that Joseph Smith was the Lord’s prophet: Isn’t it natural to expect that he would be guided to understand that these plates were not of value as far as his mission was concerned? That other members may have been less judicious and not guided in the same way cannot be laid at the Prophet’s feet. Many people, now as well as then, have an appetite for hearsay and a hope for “easy evidence” to bolster or even substitute for personal spirituality and hard-won faith that comes from close familiarity with truth and communion with God.

So it is that in the 100-year battle of straw men and straw arguments, Joseph Smith needs no defense—he simply did not fall for the scheme. And with that understood, it is perhaps time that the Kinderhook plates be retired to the limbo of other famous faked antiquities.


From: http://library.LDS.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1981.htm/ensign%20august%201981.htm/kinderhook%20plates%20brought%20to%20joseph%20smith%20appear%20to%20be%20a%20nineteenthcentury%20hoax.htm
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

What does Bushman have to say, Gaz? Will you look it up for us and post it from your copy of Joseph Smith: Rough Rolling Stone?

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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Ah, Man, yer gonna make me jump ahead? Now the thrill of the unexpected will be lost !

I'll go look. But just cause you asked so nice.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Gazelam
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Kinderhook

Post by _Gazelam »

From "Rough Stone Rolling", pg. 489-490

In April, a dozen men in Kinderhook, Pike County, Illinois, said they had dug twelve feet into a mound on the property of a local merchant, Robert Wiley, and found six small bell-shaped brass plates with undecipherable writing on them. Withen a few weeks, the plates were in Joseph's hands with request for a translation. Wiley claimed he began the dig after dreaming about treasure in the mound three nights in succession. The more likely story is that wiley, one W. Fugate, and a local blacksmith named Whitton counterfeited the plates by engraving the characters with acid. They cast this lure before the Mormon prophet in hopes of catching him in a feigned translation. A letter was sent to the Times and Seasons explaining the find, and the plates were taken to Nauvoo. An editorial in the Quincy Whig, a paper hostile to the Mormons, baited the prophet by saying that "some pretended to say that Smith, the Mormon leader, has the ability to read them." In a classic temptation, the paper observed that if he could, "it would go to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon".

John Taylor, editor of the Times and Seasons, classed the Kinderhook plates with the discoveries of Mayan ruins recently described in John Lloyd Stephens and Frederick Catherwood's immensely popular Incidents of Travel in Central America. Taylor, like all Mormons at the time, counted every building and artwork in ancient Mexico as evidence for the Book of Mormon. When the Book of Mormon first came out, Taylor pointed out, the inhabitants of the Americas were thought to have been "a rude, barbarous race, uncouth, unlettered, and without civilization." The Book of Mormon appeared like "a wild speculation." Now the picture was changing daily. The "various relics that have been found indicative of civilization , intelligence, and learning" give testimony to the authenticity of the book. The Kinderhook find, showing that ancient people wrote on plates, should "convince the skeptical that such things have been used and that even the obnoxious Book of Mormon may be true." Taylor had no doubt "but Mr. Smith will be able to translate them."

Taylor said he had not ascertained Joseph's opinion, but the Prophet had his chance when "several gentlemen" showed him the plates. Richards said Joseph sent William Smith for a Hebrew Bible and Lexicon, as if he was going to translate conventionally. Clayton, in a conflicting account, wrote that "Joseph has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a decendant of Ham through the Loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." Joseph seemed to be stepping into the trap, but then he pulled back. pressure from Taylor and the Quincy Whig did not push him any further. After the first meeting, no further mention was made of translation, and the Kinderhook plates dropped out of sight. Joseph may not have detected the fraud, but he did not swing into a full-fledged translation as he had with the Egyption scrolls. The trap did not quite spring shut, which foiled the conspirators' original plan. Instead of exposeing the plot immediately, as they had probably intended to do, they said nothing until 1879, when one of them signed an affidavit describing the fabrication. Church historians continued to insist on the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates until 1980 when an examination conducted by the Chicago Historical Society, possessor of one plate, proved it was a nineteenth-century creation.




Personally I'd add that Josephs life was fairly insane at the time with all that was going on. the whole Kinderhook incident would have been just one more thing added to the heap of difficulties going on.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Thanks, Gaz!

What do we think of the credibility of Clayton? Was he a credible witness to other events?

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_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

harmony wrote:
You consider "true apologist" to be an insult?


The tone of the post was the insult. I really don't want to play this semantics game.
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