Beastie's basic claim, as I understand it, is that the Nephites, with their advanced, God-influenced knowledge of such skills as metal smelting, would have had the rudimentary skills necessary to produce superior pottery (which has not been found in MesoAmerica.) What follows is a sampling of Gardner's silly counter assertions:
Brant Gardner wrote:Lehi and his family were wealthy city-dwellers. While there would have been an established pottery style (with available imported alternatives) none of Lehi's family were potters. They purchased their pottery.
Move that non-pottery-making clan to the New World and what can you expect? They don't know the local clays. They don't know how to fire the pots. They don't know how to construct them. There are two ways that they might acquire pottery, assuming that whatever they brought with them would eventually break and require replacement.
They made it or they bought it.
If they made it, someone had to teach them. What style and method would be taught? Obviously, the indigenous style and method.
If they bought it, what style would the creator of the pot have used? Obviously, the indigenous style and method.
An interesting counterargument, to be sure. Of course, as is to be expected, Bro. Gardner utterly rejects the "they made it" hypothesis, which is problematic, as Beastie points out:
Beastie wrote:Groups that migrate to areas quite different than their homeland still manage to retain enough traditions from their homeland that archaeologists can detect their presence. Both the Old World and Mesoamerica made pottery. Are you suggesting that the native materials would be so different that it would be impossible for the Nephites to continue making pots in their own tradition?
How does Gardner respond? By changing the subject, of course!
Brant Gardner wrote:The critical issue is how one is defining a "group." You have defined it generically and since any "group" is a "group," you are assuming general rules. You aren't thinking about the size or composition in your analysis.
Uh, unless I'm mistaken, the "critical issue" (by Gardner's own previous post) is over whether or not the Nephites were capable of making pottery. It turns out that the Nephites (according to the Book of Mormon) were skilled at a whole panoply of tasks. Here's Beastie again:
beastie wrote:you assert that since the Lehites were rich they wouldn't make pottery. I responded by reminding you that the Dever book addressed far more than pottery, and your assertion that they wouldn't use any of their old ways is directly contradicted by the Book of Mormon itself. 2 Nephi 5:13 And it came to pass that we began to prosper exceedingly, and to multiply in the land.
14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.
17 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands.
So, Brant, are you asserting that the Lehites knew how to engage in all the craft listed here, but knew nothing about pottery? And are you asserting that the issue is pottery alone? And by challenging me to demonstrate "how" they made their pottery, are you asserting that it would be impossible to make pottery (or other items, see above) in the tradition of the Old World in the New World? If so, why?
Here's some more fun and games from Brant:
Brant Gardner wrote:Actually, it wasn't addressed at all. The question is who in Lehi's group could possibly have been a potter? By Lehi's time, this was specialized knowledge. People purchased pots in the city, they didn't make them. While someone might have specialized in metals, that in no way qualified them to know how to make pottery. I have several arcane skills, but there is no way that I would recognize the proper material to even begin to make a pot.
Lehi's group was too small, and came from the wrong background to assume that they would be capable of transferring pot-making technology. You can theorize about what other groups might have done, but the groups have to be large enough to have potters in them.
Your suggestion that Nephi had to know how to make pots because he knew about metals is unsupportable for the same reason that you cannot suggest that because someone knows how to make pots that they necessarily know how to work metals.
Except, of course, that working with metal is the more advanced of the related technologies. Someone who knows how to ride a bicycle is likely to know how to ride a tricycle.
Brant Gardner wrote:Let's use a simple example. I come from a much more technically advanced society. What are the chances that I could tell anyone a better way to make a pot? Hint - I couldn't tell them anything about it.
My culture could. I can't. The problem isn't what was available in the Old World. The problem is what a particular set of people, limited in size as the group was, and limited in their cultural experience as they had to have been (given their described social position) could have brought with them.
They could bring a pot. There is no indication of any ability that they brought an understanding of how to make one.
Well, there you have it: because Bro. Gardner doesn't know how to make pottery, nobody else does! for what it's worth, it can't be that difficult, can it? I.e., you mold some clay, and then cook it in a hot fire... Right? What's so difficult about that?
Anyways, Beastie seals up this coffin with the following:
(emphasis ibid)beastie wrote:Now perhaps you can argue that the Nephite group was too small for us to find the evidence that they did not abandon their past material traditions completely, but the problem is that the Book of Mormon tells us Nephi became the leader of a significant Mesoamerican polity, and taught them material crafts.
So you're going to have to go with Charity's vote, and state, more or less, that God, being incomprehensible to human beings, chose to inspire Nephi to "teach" his people how to do things they - the native Mesoamerican "others", and everyone around them, were already doing and already knew how to do (and would actually have had to teach NEPHI), and inspired Nephi to not teach his people any Old World methods, even if they produced more desirable materials.
Or maybe he just didn't want to get his fingernails dirty.
Lol... Man, Beastie has been picking them off over there like ducks in a row! Poor Brant, he never had a chance. At least he has the gumption to bow out gracefully (as opposed to, say, having the mods shut down the thread immediately after he gets in a final post):
Brant Gardner wrote:I am not ignoring the point. They are qualitatively different. Contrary to your assertion, there is much more to making pottery than fire. This discussion is clearly not going to move forward, so I'll bow out.
Bless your soul, Brant, and better luck next time.