Brant Gardner "Gets off the Pot"

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_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:No, it doesn't make sense.

it's becoming painful to see these contortions. And for what end? These people already believe in the Bible, which also contains pseudographia, and they can accept THAT as scripture.


It's a bit like calling a zebra a dog: It has four legs, a head, two eyes, a tail, and runs, just ignore the stripes and size difference.

Many LDS writers provide what I call shopping lists to prove their points. They assemble rather impressive- looking lists of words, customs, and architectural features which are found both in the Old World and the New. The longer the list, of course, the greater the "proof." Unfortunately such an approach is rarely of any real value. A major reason for this is that the items mentioned are simply too vague. For example, one author listed the following cultural similarities as indicicative of contact between the Near East and Mexico: "counting of time," "curing their sick," "mourning for [their] dead," "sun worship," and the "[use of] ceramic[s]." I can think of hardly any culture in the world that has not become involved in these practices at one time or another. To be meaningful, such a list must cite a _complex_ system of keeping time or a _unique_ manner of mourning the dead which is found _only_ in the two cultures in question.

"All That Glitters: Uncovering Fool's Gold in Book of Mormon Archeology," Sunstone 6.1 (1981)
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

beastie wrote:No, it doesn't make sense.

These people doing their level best to defend the historicity of the Book of Mormon can put their intelligence to better use, in my opinion. I think it's time to embrace the pseudographia theory. Not that what I think matters one whit in the end, but it's becoming painful to see these contortions. And for what end? These people already believe in the Bible, which also contains pseudographia, and they can accept THAT as scripture.


I agree. I once started a satiric thread on FAIR asking why there hasn't been a concerted effort to locate Kolob in the night sky. Of course, the apologists (gtaggart in particular) just told me I was an idiot/jerk, and basically made fun of the entire premise. They said it would be a waste of time, etc.
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Mister Scratch wrote:I agree. I once started a satiric thread on FAIR asking why there hasn't been a concerted effort to locate Kolob in the night sky. Of course, the apologists (gtaggart in particular) just told me I was an idiot/jerk, and basically made fun of the entire premise. They said it would be a waste of time, etc.


In my Astronomy class (bloody hell, I'm a senior in college and I have to take a 101 class, what the hell?) I haven't seen Kolob yet. I think I should go ask the professor where it can be located, just to see his reaction.

Bond
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Bond...James Bond wrote:In my Astronomy class (bloody hell, I'm a senior in college and I have to take a 101 class, what the hell?) I haven't seen Kolob yet. I think I should go ask the professor where it can be located, just to see his reaction.

Bond


In the interest of further elaboration: What I actually did was start a Poll that asked, "Kolob: Where is it? Could it aid in faith?" I then gave four choices:
1. It's a real star, visible from Earth
2. It's real, but we can't see it
3. It's merely metaphorical
4. We'll never know

The responses were remarkably divided. (I personally voted '4').
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Bond...James Bond wrote:In my Astronomy class (bloody hell, I'm a senior in college and I have to take a 101 class, what the hell?) I haven't seen Kolob yet. I think I should go ask the professor where it can be located, just to see his reaction.


Better be sure your professor is a Mormon, otherwise he'll look at you like you're crazy.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:In my Astronomy class (bloody hell, I'm a senior in college and I have to take a 101 class, what the hell?) I haven't seen Kolob yet. I think I should go ask the professor where it can be located, just to see his reaction.


Better be sure your professor is a Mormon, otherwise he'll look at you like you're crazy.


I wonder which face would be better, a Mormon or non-Mormon when asked about Kolob?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

It takes a lot of imagination and creativity to read the Book of Mormon and see it fit Mesoamerica the way John Clark claims:

I have shown that the content of the Book of Mormon fits comfortably with Mesoamerican prehistory, both in general patterns and in some extraordinary details. Many things mentioned in the book still have not been verified archaeologically, but this was true just a few years ago for some items just reviewed. The trend over the last 50 years is one of convergence between the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerican archaeology. Book of Mormon claims remain unaltered since 1830, so all the accommodation has been on the archaeology side.


Ha, ha, ha -- the Book of Mormon claims remain unaltered since 1830? Who is he fooling? (lots of people....)

I think it's time for a truly ambitious and creative mind to rewrite the Book of Mormon the way it would sound if it had a Mesoamerican setting. All the anachronisms would be cut out. Missing cultural elements and technologies would be put back in. "Other" civilizations would be mentioned explicitly. The two hill Cumorah problem would be explained. A map would be included inside the front cover to show where the Nephite/Lamanite cities are located in relation to known geography and archaeological features. This would be a a work of fiction, but it would fit Mesoamerica better than Joseph Smith's version.

Then the Book of Mormon could be made into a movie. This is what the MAD board-ers are thinking of when they watch "Apocalypto" and fantasize about the Book of Mormon. Somebody should get cracking and rewrite the book as something that could be transformed into a historically "accurate" movie script.

As it stands, the Book of Mormon does not fit.
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Post by _Runtu »

The Dude wrote:
Then the Book of Mormon could be made into a movie. This is what the MAD board-ers are thinking of when they watch "Apocalypto" and fantasize about the Book of Mormon. Somebody should get cracking and rewrite the book as something that could be transformed into a historically "accurate" movie script.

As it stands, the Book of Mormon does not fit.


I remember Brant Gardner saying that the only place that the Book of Mormon could have taken place was in Mesoamerica. I was a believer back then, but it still boggled my mind.

The "pottery" thread is just another illustration of the solid evidence they have: bupkis.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The Dude,

Did you realize that an LDS archaeologist was a consultant for Mel Gibson? (Richard Hansen). I knew that before seeing it, so maybe I was "looking" for LDS fingerprints, but I thought some of the more serious errors in the movie were related to trying to make it "fit" the Book of Mormon. The innocent, family-loving "good guys" tribe who were suddenly attacked by evil doing "bad guys". The "good guys" obviously had no connection to the world view of the "bad guys" and were confused and amazed at what transpired.

I'm sorry, that's just b***s***. But it sure does sound like "Nephites" and "Lamanites", doesn't it??

I was really upset at the movie.

I remember Brant Gardner saying that the only place that the Book of Mormon could have taken place was in Mesoamerica. I was a believer back then, but it still boggled my mind.


There's a good reason he says that: Mesoamerica is the only area that had levels of population and social complexity that approach Book of Mormon levels. Not even the most determined and creative apologist is going to be able to patch together an argument that would convince even the most ardent believers that the Book of Mormon took place in north america, for example, where the population levels and social complexity were much, much lower than mesoamerica. That's why they are so attached to Mesoamerica, despite all the apparent problems. It really is the last hope for historicity.

The "pottery" thread is just another illustration of the solid evidence they have: bupkis.


Hey, aren't you forgetting the amazing Gadianton Robbers and Teotihuacan connection?????
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Can someone who has been following the thread translate Juliann's last post for me? She think she googled out a quote that contradicts my assertions when, in reality, it completely supports my assertions. What language is she speaking? Or I have completely missed the boat and need to submit myself to a medical evaluation????
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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