Was Joseph a Paedophile?

[_Mary]

This is a judgement that often comes up. (Just came up on the telestial forum)

What evidence is there that this is the case?

Though marrying a 14 year old is close to the bone (very close). I'm not sure it would put him
in the category of a paedophile as we would understand the term today?
I say I'm not sure, and I really do mean that....not sure?

Mary

[_Mephitus]

A pedophile is defined as a person who is attracted, or otherwise abuses, underage or pre-pubescent children.

Over the last few centuries the age of pubescence has decreased at a steady and reliable rate. During Joe's time, it was very common for a woman to enter pubescence around the age of 18-20. I wish i was at home, i had a report done by a pediatric doctor about this exact subject.

And as is said in one of my favorite movies "... but to think that a married couple wouldn't "get down" is just plain gullibility" - Dogma

[_Mary]

Thanks Sono,
I did some digging.


From:

Tanner, J.M. Foetus Into Man: Physical Growth from Conception to Maturity. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1978.

Tanner, J.M. Growth at adolescence, with a general consideration of the effects of hereditary and environmental factors upon growth and maturation from birth to maturity. Oxford: Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1962.

According to Tanner, the average age of menarche dropped from about 17 to 12.8 during the period 1830-1962. The rate of decline was 4 months per decade.

Problems with the Documentation of the Secular Trend

Tanner's data is suspect because he used a small study group in establishing the original age of 17, and then used them to compare with groups elsewhere.

Tanner's establishment of the age range for normal development was based on a group of 192 lower-class girls in a children's home, who may have had low-quality care prior to the study.

For the following, I couldn't find evidence to back up the claims...(my bold for period of interest)

Historical Data on Age at Menarche

Early data

Ancient Rome 12-14

Medieval Europe 12-14

Medieval Middle East 12-13

Nineteenth Century

Manchester 1840s

working class women 15.7

upper class women 14.6
London 1855 (hospital patients) 15.5

Germany 1869 15.7

Scotland 1870 15.6-16.6

London 1880 (middle class) 15

U.S.A. late 19th century 12-14

Early 20th Century

USA 1905 14-15.7

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1310280.stm

A report published in the British Medical Journal shows the average age of menarche (age at first period) in British teenagers is 12 years and 11 months.

Previous surveys in the 1950s and 1960s found the average age was around 13-and-a-half.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7294/1095/DC1

From Wiki: (seemed quite reasonable)

There were few systematic studies of timing of menarche before the latter half of the 20th century. Most older estimates of average timing of menarche were based on observation of a small homogeneous population not necessarily representative of the larger population, or based on recall by adult women, which is also susceptible to various forms of error. Most sources agree that average age of menarche in girls in modern societies has declined, though the reasons and the degree remain subjects of controversy.

Here's a Danish Study of women in the 19th Century (the period we are interested in)

This study was of a cluster of 3385 women in the 1840's in Denmark. I don't have full access to the article so I don't know what class they came from
(important for nutrition/health and how it effects menarche)

Here's the abstract

Medical observations on 3385 Danish women, from the 1840s, indicate that at that time the average age at menarche was 16 years and 3 months for Denmark as a whole. Since then, age at menarche has decreased, with an average rate of a little over 2½ months per decade.

From: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/t ... 1/art00008

On the definition of a paedophile


From Wiki:

The term paedophilia erotica was coined in 1886 by the Vienna psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing in his writing Psychopathia Sexualis.[4] He gave the following characteristics:

the sexual interest is toward children, either prepubescent or at the beginning of puberty

The article also suggests an age differential of 5 years or more.

Obviously, using these definitions Joseph, nowadays would be regarded as a paedophile? (Particularly if the marriages included a sexual element)
Would he have been regarded as such in the first half of the 19th century?

[_Mercury]

This is a judgement that often comes up. (Just came up on the telestial forum)

What evidence is there that this is the case?

Though marrying a 14 year old is close to the bone (very close). I'm not sure it would put him
in the category of a paedophile as we would understand the term today?
I say I'm not sure, and I really do mean that....not sure?

Mary

To believe that Joe wanted to marry a 14 year old girl alone is suspect. Joe was a pedophile. There is nothing around this.

[_Mary]

Okay, am I being naïve here.

Has this issue already been decided, packaged and posted?

Thoughts?

[_gramps]

Well, the definition is provided above. How many young girls does it have to be, one or 2 or 3, or more? And over what period of time? Does that matter?

I'll tell you what. I never knew until I was back from my mission that he had not just another wife, but possibly 33 and I've heard of other higher estimates. A scoundrel, to be sure. They weren't all old ladies.

It seems he liked all types. I think the label of pedophile only covers part, a major part to be sure, of his whole history with the other sex. He's more than a pedophile. But I don't know the terminology.

Wacky! And the guy is still revered. I just don't get it. I could never live in the church after learning about that guy's real life, not the whitewashed one you get from the church.

Someone explain it to me. Why revere this guy?

[_marg]

Okay, am I being naïve here.

Has this issue already been decided, packaged and posted?

Thoughts?

The issue centers around a definition of pedophile. According to my understanding of pedophile, in which it refers to an abnormal pedominant sexual interest in children as opposed to sexual interest in sexually mature individuals, J.Smith doesn't fit that profile.

One can look at averages of menarche over past 100 years but that is irrelevant to specific cases as there will obviously be individuals outside the mean average, which make up that average. in my opinion one would have to show J. Smith had a sexual interest mainly in, sexually undeveloped females. I don't think it's been shown any of the women Smith had an interest in were sexually immature, even if they were 14 years old, as in the case of Helen Kimball.

J. Smith's sexual liasons with many women, is not uncommon with men who are in positions to take advantage of this. It's biologically quite normal behavior.

[_ajax18]

Amen Marg.

I think calling Joseph Smith a pediphile is just a way to try to make things sound as bad as you possibly can. This isn't necessary. Find something else to criticize him about. Statements like this is what makes antimormon literature look so biased and slanderous and basically false. The fact that women married earlier in past times should be considered as well. The legal marrying age was quite young in many states at one time.

[_harmony]

Let's remember what Joseph was about, peeps: power. He craved it with an unquenchable hunger, and the more he got, the more he wanted. Virtually everything he did from the time he was a teenager was designed to gain power while expending minimal effort.

I don't think his marriage to Helen was about sex; I think it was about power over her father and mother. Heber sacrificed his daughter in order to keep his wife out of Joseph's hands, and in doing so, sealed his fate as an accomplice to Joseph's schemes. Joseph was able to consolidate his power because he knew exactly which buttons to push on each individual. That it was all coming unraveled and resulted in his death shouldn't surprise anyone. And that Brigham was able to usurp Joseph's power away from Joseph's children is also not a surprise; Brigham, more than any of them, understood that it was all about power. He started with nothing and when he was buried he was worth millions and ruled the territory with an iron fist.

[_Jersey Girl]

Was Joseph Smith a pedophile?

Based on all I've read, my opinion is no. He was a master manipulator. He manipulated both male and female. Some of his wives were very young. There is no proof that he had sex with them.

Jersey Girl