Peterson and faith - No Scholarship, just truthiness

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by _Fortigurn »

Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


You do a great impression of a frightened Ostritch there. If theres no sand around, do you just close your eyes tight, put your fingers in your ears and go "La La La La, Im not listening"
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Mercury
_Emeritus
Posts: 5543
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Post by _Mercury »

Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


Not to mention the likelihood the event either never took place or is so out of context to be...well..Biblical.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by _Fortigurn »

Gazelam wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


You do a great impression of a frightened Ostritch there. If theres no sand around, do you just close your eyes tight, put your fingers in your ears and go "La La La La, Im not listening"


I am not doing an impression of anything. I am simply pointing out that the passage you quoted did not say what you claimed. The word 'priesthood' for example, is found nowhere in that passage. There's no mention of a priesthood at all. This is verifiable.
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Re: vegas

Post by _maklelan »

Fortigurn wrote:
rcrocket wrote:No hint? Absolutely none? (I know this is the EV view.) In my particular case, it did not initially come with a burning bosom. But, I point you to Luke 24:32 which is a lot more than a non-hint.


All that says is that while the disciples were talking with Jesus, they experienced a strong emotional sensation. They had absolutely no idea what it was or why they were experiencing it until after Jesus had revealed himself to them, and it certainly did not convict them of anything. In fact they couldn't explain it until Jesus had revealed himself openly. This is the opposite of the 'burning bosom' of Mormonism.


Luke 24:32 - "And they said one to another, Did not our hearts burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

I think you're reading several things into that pericope that are not really there, and you force a couple of assumptions on it as well. But, just to show you that your reduction of Mormon spirituality is inaccurate, I will show you what is really taught about the burning in the bosom:

Jay E. Jensen wrote:One of the Quorum of the Twelve came to tour the mission over which the Seventy was presiding. As they drove to the next zone conference, the Apostle turned to him and said, “I wonder if you might have left an impression in the missionaries’ minds that has created more problems than you can resolve. As I have traveled throughout the Church, I’ve found relatively few people who have experienced a burning of the bosom. In fact, I’ve had many people tell me that they’ve become frustrated because they have never experienced that feeling even though they have prayed or fasted for long periods of time.”

He explained that Doctrine and Covenants 9:7–9 was given in response to the process of translating sacred records. [D&C 9:7–9] There the burning of the bosom was appropriate. The principle can apply to personal revelation, he said, but more precisely it related to the translation of the Book of Mormon. He counseled the mission president to refer missionaries to other scriptural references about the Holy Ghost. For example, he cited the verse “Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?” (D&C 6:23.)

Over the years, I have tried to learn the different ways in which the Spirit of the Lord works. Surely God does speak from heaven, but he manifests, confirms, or gives direction in a variety of ways.


Boyd K. Packer wrote:This burning in the bosom is not purely a physical sensation. It is more like a warm light shining within your being


Dallin H. Oaks wrote:What does a ‘burning in the bosom’ mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom.


The New Era wrote:Different people describe the feelings of the Holy Ghost in different ways. Some people describe the feeling as a “burning in the bosom” (see D&C 9:8), others talk about feeling filled with light (see D&C 88:67), and still others simply describe the promptings of the Spirit as a feeling of joy, peace, or calm (see D&C 6:22–23; D&C 11:13).


In every example I've ever seen of someone describing a spiritual witness they have only said "burning bosom" after they mention that they can't explain what it's like. This is the entire reason for President Packer's famous talk about describing the taste of salt. Perhaps the "'burning bosom' of Mormonism" is closer to what you describe than you are willing to admit.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Re: vegas

Post by _Fortigurn »

maklelan wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
rcrocket wrote:No hint? Absolutely none? (I know this is the EV view.) In my particular case, it did not initially come with a burning bosom. But, I point you to Luke 24:32 which is a lot more than a non-hint.


All that says is that while the disciples were talking with Jesus, they experienced a strong emotional sensation. They had absolutely no idea what it was or why they were experiencing it until after Jesus had revealed himself to them, and it certainly did not convict them of anything. In fact they couldn't explain it until Jesus had revealed himself openly. This is the opposite of the 'burning bosom' of Mormonism.


Luke 24:32 - "And they said one to another, Did not our hearts burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

I think you're reading several things into that pericope that are not really there, and you force a couple of assumptions on it as well.


What am I reading into it? The Mormon 'burning bosom' is supposed to be a spiritual witness to the truth of what you've heard or been taught. The disciples did not receive such a thing here.

But, just to show you that your reduction of Mormon spirituality is inaccurate...


Where did I carry out any such reduction?

...I will show you what is really taught about the burning in the bosom:

Jay E. Jensen wrote:One of the Quorum of the Twelve came to tour the mission over which the Seventy was presiding. As they drove to the next zone conference, the Apostle turned to him and said, “I wonder if you might have left an impression in the missionaries’ minds that has created more problems than you can resolve. As I have traveled throughout the Church, I’ve found relatively few people who have experienced a burning of the bosom. In fact, I’ve had many people tell me that they’ve become frustrated because they have never experienced that feeling even though they have prayed or fasted for long periods of time.”

He explained that Doctrine and Covenants 9:7–9 was given in response to the process of translating sacred records. [D&C 9:7–9] There the burning of the bosom was appropriate. The principle can apply to personal revelation, he said, but more precisely it related to the translation of the Book of Mormon. He counseled the mission president to refer missionaries to other scriptural references about the Holy Ghost. For example, he cited the verse “Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?” (D&C 6:23.)

Over the years, I have tried to learn the different ways in which the Spirit of the Lord works. Surely God does speak from heaven, but he manifests, confirms, or gives direction in a variety of ways.


Boyd K. Packer wrote:This burning in the bosom is not purely a physical sensation. It is more like a warm light shining within your being


Dallin H. Oaks wrote:What does a ‘burning in the bosom’ mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom.


The New Era wrote:Different people describe the feelings of the Holy Ghost in different ways. Some people describe the feeling as a “burning in the bosom” (see D&C 9:8), others talk about feeling filled with light (see D&C 88:67), and still others simply describe the promptings of the Spirit as a feeling of joy, peace, or calm (see D&C 6:22–23; D&C 11:13).


In every example I've ever seen of someone describing a spiritual witness they have only said "burning bosom" after they mention that they can't explain what it's like. This is the entire reason for President Packer's famous talk about describing the taste of salt.


That's great, but none of this actually addresses my point, which is that the disciples did not receive this 'burning bosom' experience as defined by your own quotes, and nor does anyone else in the New Testament.

Perhaps the "'burning bosom' of Mormonism" is closer to what you describe than you are willing to admit.


What did I describe?
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Gazelam wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
Gazelam wrote:As it was then, so is it today. After a person is Baptised in the name of Christ, a priesthood bearer places his hands on the head of the individual and says to them, "receive the Holy Ghost".


The passage you quoted did not say that. It said nothing of the priesthood, and this incident was an exception in the Christian experience. The passage you quoted from Corinthians did not speak of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit either.


You do a great impression of a frightened Ostritch there. If theres no sand around, do you just close your eyes tight, put your fingers in your ears and go "La La La La, Im not listening"


No, Gaz---Fortigurn is right. This is yet another piece of evidence indicating that you do not even understand the scriptures you cite. The Corinthian passage tells of "the things of God" operating in a different, separate, spiritual sphere that is separate from the "things of man." It seems that you do not actually understand these scriptures in an especially deep way, Gaz, but instead rely on Church manuals for all your understanding.

But, hey, since you think the HG is a material fact, why don't you just pray and have the Spirit guide your fingers into typing up a totally lucid and articulate exegesis?
Post Reply