No, I don't take it seriously any longer. And you're right about two things:
1. The apologists prove that LDS prophets are no more inclined to reveal God's will than anyone else
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You know this really got me. I know it did you as well. I got to the point when being a defender where I thought that it sure seems like very little of what the Prophets said is really doctrine. They sure gave out a lot of opinions. And then I realized that they more likely then not didn't think what they were saying was their opinion when they said it. They taught it like it was true, and they believed it. And here I was arguing "well, no, that is not really something you can hold us to. That was just Brigham's or Orson's or whoever's opinion." Who was I to tell the prophet this? For apologists this seems par for the course.
2. The realization that your "personal revelation" can testify to demonstrable falsehood is devastating.
I haven't had time to read through the responses yet but here are my issues.
Polygamy was the main issue for me, and everything else kind of falls around it. If you feel in your heart and soul that a principle of God is abominable, cruel, etc. why would God allow me in his presence? Furthermore, I would not be happy in a kingdom where polygamists are honored and practicing this principle. If the principle is Godly, then it will be required for exaltation. Everything in the church focuses on the "forever family", so it all comes down to this principle in the end.
One of my favorite quotes came from Dr. Shades I believe. Somebody has it as their signature on MAD.
It goes something like "when your church changes-apostacy. When my church changes-continuing revelation" This sums up how I feel about the church today. I am told by apologists that any statement made in the past by Prophets was opinion, unless it is canon. Canon are statements made by prophets that members vote on, and are put in the standard works. As a TBM, I had always been told that in Conference the words of the Prophet and apostles were as good as scripture, if not more important because they were for our day. When I looked up sources for the many talks given by the GA's, they are always referencing teachings from the JoD and teachings that are not canon. So most of their talks are quoting "opinions" and the rest of their talk is only their opinion mingled with scripture.
It seems like there is no point in a Prophet, if the members vote on what is canon and our church is no more inspired than the Catholic church.
So when I am troubled by racist teachings, sexist doctrine, dishonest statements by Prophets, phony translations of papyri,
edited history, changes to temple ordinances, white washed deceptive teachings and history, and so on, I can rest easy that it was just "opinion" and not God's word. So, why do we need a prophet again???
It will be fascinating to see in 100 years which teachings by the current Prophets are labeled as "opinion."
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
It will be fascinating to see in 100 years which teachings by the current Prophets are labeled as "opinion."
Most if not all of them. The current prophets' offerings of earrings, tattoos, and teased hair will likely not be at all applicable to life 100 years from now. Heck, they're not applicable to life now. Life left them behind 50 years ago. They're stuck in the 50's, and seem to think life is a 2 dimensional takeoff of Leave It to Beaver.
It will be fascinating to see in 100 years which teachings by the current Prophets are labeled as "opinion."
Harmony:
Most if not all of them. The current prophets' offerings of earrings, tattoos, and teased hair will likely not be at all applicable to life 100 years from now. Heck, they're not applicable to life now. Life left them behind 50 years ago. They're stuck in the 50's, and seem to think life is a 2 dimensional takeoff of Leave It to Beaver.
I agree with Harmony that the earring and tattoo ban, which TBMs took as gospel truths direct from God for about 3 years, will become merely opinion as soon as Gordon B. Hinckley dies.
Women will eventually be allowed to hold the priesthood, probably not for another 50 years or so, but when they do the apologists will claim that there never was an official ban on women holding the priesthood. It was merely the opinions of past prophets and it was never doctrine.
The Book of Abraham will quietly disappear from future editions of the Pearl of Great Price. When asked about it, the GAs will claim that Joseph Smith never intended it to be canonized and the First Presidency canonized it during a time of great persecution and their judgment was effected. It was never intended to be canonized, and if the saints had not been so harshly persecuted in the late 1800s, it never would have been.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
1) Book of Mormon (dozens here by itself)
2) Book of Abraham
3) Lay priesthood (and their uneducated actions such as counseling, giving advise)
4) Church owning businesses/malls
5) Racist statements by Prophets
5) Modern Revelation (or lack thereof)
6) Sexism in the church (priesthood to men only, etc.)
7) LDS Prophets' statements on sexual issues (masturbation)
8) Kolob
9) De facto mandatory tithing
10) The Amount of time required for callings
11) Questioning of kids on sexual issues
12) Mark Hoffmann episode
13) Polygamy, especially post-manifesto polygamy.
14). Organic evolution and creationism, as found in the standard works.
15) the Strengthening The Members Committee
16) The wholesale stealing of Masonic rites for Joseph's inspired temple ceremony.
17). Widespread use of church funds to enrich church leaders.
18) The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
19) Homophobia
20) God as an advanced Caucasian primate (image of God)
21) The need to believe what is good is actually bad, and what is bad is actually good
22) The strong emphasis on selfishness (do things so you can get blessings)
23) The motivating factor for all behavior consisting of blessings in the afterlife (ulterior motives for actions)
24) God as a being who in my opinion is a horrific, cruel, horrible, creature more liike the men of the tribal nomadic bands
25) The manipulative and coercive techniques to believe
26) The fact that people the world over are having powerful experiences similar to those of the LDS church (elitism)
27) The afterlife nonsense (Celestial, Terrestial, Telestial, Outer Darkness, etc)
28) The changing, altering, confusing, convoluted, unknown teachings/doctrine/practices (changes in God's teachings)
29) The complexity of the teachings that do not make sense
30) The need to deny reality to embrace something that seems nonsensical (suspension of reality)
31) The thwarting of individual creativiy and unique gifts to embrace a rigid role for women
32) The lack of evidence that the LDS church is any different than any other religion
33) A "plan" that makes absolutly no sense at all
34) The CKHL that is more like HELL than heaven
35) Elitism
36) The premortal life that COMPLETELY makes no sense whatsoever (Spirit children)
37) The idea of a war in heaven where we chose to come here to participate in this plan
38) Separation of families
39) The idea that little ceremonies and rituals that we do in this little tiny blink in the history of our universe determines the rest of eternity
40) The idea that God actually knew how this world would be and went with it
41) The idea that God's one and only true church would have such sorrow associated with it (depression)
42) The whole Adam and Eve idea
43) The whole Garden of Eden in Missouri thing
44) The Tower of Babel stuff
45) The need for temple rituals by proxy (including Baptism for the Dead)
46) The focus on the church as opposed to the world
47)The rule to not allow a couple to get married outside the temple followed by a sealing (in the US)
48) The lack of diversity and the emphasis on a world conforming to the image of 1950's in Utah
49) The "worship" of church leaders
50) The disengenuous research and teachings (think Huge Nibley)
51) The fear based nature of belief (punishment for not doing as the church commands)
52) The inability to document the single-most important event that's happened on earth since Christ's resurrection: the restoration of the M priesthood.
53) The lack of authority to start the church.
54) Sealings and marriages that were done prior to and without the restoration of the sealing power.
55) Rewriting of church history
56) the persistent insistence that all is well in Zion, when anyone with half a brain can figure out that all is not only not well in Zion, but Zion is under condemnation because of the actions of the leaders.
57) the emphasis on outward appearances and finances in TRI's, instead of emphasizing the basics of the gospel.
58) speeches about teased hair when 3 blocks away, homeless children are hungry. (speechs about unimportant matters by Church leaders)
59) the lack of accountability on every level.
60) No matter how hard i tried to get into it, i found church to be extremely boring, and a complete waste of time. (CHURCH IS BORING)
61) All of the emphasis placed on "keeping up appearances" (cliques in the church)
62) Non-member and non-temple recommend holders being unable to witness weddings.
63) Adam-God
64) Kinderhook Plates
65) Blood atonement
66) Prophets speaking as Prophets vs speaking as men
67) Keeping mentally handicapped people from witnessing temple weddings
68) Focusing on the dead rather than the living (believing the work will all be done for everyone in the millennium)
69) Promising to sacrifice everything to the building up of the church over helping and serving others
70) Stating opinion as fact (by Church leaders)
71) Not apologizing for mistakes/church actions
72) No correction of misleading teachings
73) The hurt that comes to families when a family member doesn't believe or leaves the church (family separation due to unbelief)
74) The teaching that those who let go of belief are followers of Satan, horrific sinners, or have been offended (villification of apostates)
75) De facto worship of Church leadership 76) The contortions by LDS Apologists to defend Mormonism
77) The priesthood ban for African-American until 1978
78) lack of supplies to perform callings
79) lack of return on tithing to the local Church
80) The disgusting/demeaning callings (janitorial work, cleaning toilets, etc)
81) The crackdown on free speech/free expression at Church colleges
82) Faith promoting hymns (Follow the Prophet)
83) The labeling of teenagers/young men "Elder", yet women always being "sister" (more sexism)
84) The general contraditions in the Church (Since when does God change his mind?)
edited to add:
85) Secret handshakes (I thought it was on here....the list is getting rather long :)
86) Church political involvement
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
Bond...James Bond wrote:The updated list. Do we have anymore?
I didn't see secret handshakes required to get into CK.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
Bond...James Bond wrote:The updated list. Do we have anymore?
I'd throw in political involvement.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Bond...James Bond wrote:The updated list. Do we have anymore?
I didn't see secret handshakes required to get into CK.
I didn't speak up about 'throat slitting' - i figured that was covered by the mason/temple connection. but it did have a big impact on me - if you want to list it separately. if not, that's fine too.
what about:
Primary brainwashing - "follow the prophet, follow the prophet..."
Teaching 5 year olds to stand up in sacrament meeting and say "I know this chuwch is twoo".
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
This list was originally started to prove the point that 90% of arguments don't come from Joseph Smith's character and Church secrecy (which I think we proved fairly well).
Since the list is getting so long as exhaustive, I might as well add every argument, so consider the thread a free for all on Smith's character or anything else you want to list as an argument. I'll be posting this list to my blog too so that it won't be forgotten in the archives of MD. Thanks everyone for their responses.
Bond
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
This list was originally started to prove the point that 90% of arguments don't come from Joseph Smith's character and Church secrecy (which I think we proved fairly well).
Since the list is getting so long as exhaustive, I might as well add every argument, so consider the thread a free for all on Smith's character or anything else you want to list as an argument. I'll be posting this list to my blog too so that it won't be forgotten in the archives of MD. Thanks everyone for their responses.
Bond
You do realize that none of this matters, don't you? No matter what we believe or say, the apologists will keep saying it's all about Joseph's character and the church's secrecy. Straw men aren't designed to actually add anything to an argument, after all.