Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

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_desert_vulture
_Emeritus
Posts: 87
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Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _desert_vulture »

marg wrote:You appear to lack an appreciation of the concept of reasoning...applied to evidence...

But besides evidence of witnesses there is common sense evidence, that con men appreciate their own cons. One would have to be extremely credulous, (lack good reasoning ability) to believe that Smith with his treasure seeking didn't appreciate his own cons. .

"Common sense" evidence? That's an interesting concept Marg, I'll have to pay particular attention the next time someone introduces "common sense" evidence. You are wonderful at being critical of other's ability to think and reason, while you appear confused about what actually constitutes "evidence" and how one should weigh the evidence appropriately. Common sense is not evidence, Marg. It's just common sense. Take it easy on Bourne, man.

Bourne has a point. Joseph Smith went to extreme measures to preserve his "religion" for future generations, by writing down many "revelations" and having scribes compile a church history. Seems pretty elaborate for a conman who just wanted to make a few bucks. I tend to believe Joseph Smith actually believed much of what he preached, if not pathologically, then literally. He may have deluded himself into believing things that weren't so, but a pathological liar also believes his lies. They become true to him. Maybe Joseph Smith was a pathological liar in many respects? Who knows.

-DV
_marg

Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _marg »

[previously:
But besides evidence of witnesses there is common sense evidence, that con men appreciate their own cons. One would have to be extremely credulous, (lack good reasoning ability) to believe that Smith with his treasure seeking didn't appreciate his own cons. .[/quote]


DV wrote: Common sense" evidence? That's an interesting concept Marg, I'll have to pay particular attention the next time someone introduces "common sense" evidence. You are wonderful at being critical of other's ability to think and reason, while you appear confused about what actually constitutes "evidence" and how one should weigh the evidence appropriately. Common sense is not evidence, Marg. It's just common sense. Take it easy on Bourne, man.


Well hello Vulture, last time we talked you bailed. So you are interested again? Note my words, "common sense evidence, that con men appreciate their own cons" Please don't take words out of context. Can you explain to me how an individual can devise and perpetuate a con lasting many years without fully appreciating what they are doing? For example do you think J. Smith didn't appreciate that his head in the hat night time treasure seeking was a con or do you believe he sincerely believed what he was doing was legitimate, that it would actually work?
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _why me »

grampa75 wrote:

When I read anything about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ I first read all the prophecies foretelling that restoration. Daniel lets us know the very day the Kingdom of God would come to earth, which was when the tenth kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar would be established, which was 1828 while Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon. St. Peter said, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restitution of ALL THINGS ever spoken of by all the holy prophets since the world began." If anything at all had to be restored so as to allow the kindom of God to come, wouldn't it seem that something must have been missing. But it wasn't just one or two things that needed to be restored, it was ALL THINGS. It puzzels me why more people can't see the truths that fill the Book of Mormon and our other scriptures. I know the Church of Jesus Christ is the restored Kingdom of God that was prophesied to come to get the earth ready for the second coming of the Lord. "And he who will not believe that prophet, shall be destroy from off the face of the earth."

grampa75


You need to stick around here Grampa75. We need some wisdom on these boards. Don't let the crticism of your name get you down. For our critics, it seems to be unheard of that you may be 75 years old and a grandpa.

Glad to have you aboard.
_marg

psychology of con men

Post by _marg »

A quick search on "psychology of con men" came up with this web site. Although its focus is on current day crime frauds.. I think lots can be gleaned from it with relevance to Smith's motivations and personality type.

From t r e n d s & i s s u e s
No. 199
The Psychology of Fraud
Grace Duffield and Peter Grabosky
in crime and criminal justice
March 2001


http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/ti199.pdf

or

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:F6y ... =clnk&cd=1

I've taken only some selected portions and bolded some text.

Psychological Factors in Fraud

At first glance, a psychological explanation for fraud would appear simple—greed and
dishonesty. Such an explanation is, however, overly simplistic.
There are many in society who are aggressively acquisitive but generally law abiding. Moreover, not all dishonest people commit fraud. To date, behavioural scientists have been unable to identify a psychological
characteristic that serves as a valid and reliable marker of the propensity of an individual to
commit fraud.

Common Elements of Motivation
for Fraud


Explanations based on financial strain feature in almost every type of fraudulent activity. This may arise from imprudence, misfortune or a combination of the two. Of course, financial strain is a very subjective thing. Even those of above-average affluence
may feel economically deprived in comparison to what they perceive to be their relevant
standard. At times, “keeping up with the Jones’s” may require other than lawful conduct. Simply put, this comes down to the desire to possess what one cannot afford, even when true financial deprivation may not exist. Inherent in this is an element of ego in which there is a
comparison with others who are better off and a desire to match that standard in terms of lifestyle, comfort and material possessions.


Financial strain may also arise from the threat of loss of something currently owned. For
example, high-flying entrepreneurs may encounter adverse business conditions that
place them in a position of acute financial vulnerability and threaten the empire that they
have built for themselves. The threat of loss here is not only of material wealth but also of power,status and pride.

Another aspect of motivation that may apply to some or all types of fraud is ego/power. Thiscan relate to power over people as well as power over situations. In terms of the former, the sensation of power over another individual or individuals seems to be a strong motivating force for some fraud offenders to the point that itbecomes an end in itself. As one
confidence man put it: For myself, I love to make people do what I want them to, I love
command. I love to rule people. That’s why I’m a con artist.
(quoted in Blum 1972, p. 46)

In manipulating and making fools of their victims, some fraud perpetrators seem to take a
contemptuous delight in the act itself rather than simply theoutcome. As Stotland (1977)
points out: …sometimes individuals’ motivation for crime may have originally been relative
deprivation, greed, threat to continued goal attainment and so forth. However, as they found
themselves successful at this crime, they began to gain some secondary delight in the knowledge that they are fooling the world, that they are showing their superiority to others.
(pp. 186–7)


Similar to the sense of superiority over others is the gratification obtained from mastery of a situation. This may be particularly prevalent in more complex, long-term fraud and computer fraud where specialist skills are required. It also reflects the professional pride of the confidence artist. The following quotation illustrates the thrill of the chase.
Half of being a con man is the challenge. When I score, I get more kick out of that than
anything; to score is the biggest kick of my whole life. (quoted in Blum 1972, p. 44)
Stotland (1977) calls this motivation “ego challenge” (p. 188) and it relates to the sense of mastery and excitement in meeting and overcoming challenges. As he points out, some fraud
perpetrators work very hard at their trade, so they are not in it for an “easy buck”.


Another general psychological aspect of fraud is the process of rationalisation which reduces the offender’s inhibition. Such attempts at prospective excuse have been termed “techniques of neutralisation” (Sykes & Matza 1957). There has been a tendency
in the literature to confuse motivation with neutralisation, but they differ in important ways.
Motivation is what drives the act of fraud, while neutralisation paves the way by nullifying
internal moral objections.

Regardless of the type of fraud, most offenders seem to seek to justify or rationalise their activity. In doing so they will use “vocabularies of adjustment” (Cressey 1953, 1986; Krambia-
Kapardis 2001) that manufacture rationale and extenuating circumstances and remove the
perception of criminality from the act (at least from the point of view of the perpetrator).

Techniques of neutralisation will vary with the type of fraud (Benson 1985).

Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders


, narcissistic personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, a need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. Individuals with this disorder
believe that they are superior, unique and “chosen”, and they are likely to have inflated views of their own accomplishments and abilities. They focus on how well they are doing in comparison with others, and this can take the form of an excessive need for
attention and admiration. A sense of entitlement is evident and they expect to be given whatever they want regardless of the imposition it places on others.
In the
workplace these people tend to overwork others. They demand unquestioning loyalty and are incredulous or infuriated when it is not forthcoming. They are likely to respond angrily to
criticism
(DSM-IV Task Force
1994, pp. 658–9).

Perhaps most relevant to fraud offences is the tendency of the narcissistic personality to usurp special privileges and extra resources that they feel they have an entitlement
to, over and above ordinary people.


Due to their ambition, confidence and ruthlessness in dealing with others, the
narcissistic personality may be a high achiever in their chosen field of endeavour.


However, it can be argued that the presence of narcissistic personality traits increases the
risk of fraud on the part of an individual through the attitudes they manifest, their leadership
style and the environment that they seek out.


The direct person-to-person deception of another individual can involve utter ruthlessness.
This may take such extreme forms as the person who takes a widow into his or her confidence and leaves her penniless. Offenders of this type may manifest a number
of traits including lack of affection or empathy, lack of remorse and a general lack of conventional conscience. Such individuals are also likely to enjoy acting, as acting skills are advantageous, if not essential, to the deception inherent in face-to-face fraud.

Beyond this, skills in salesmanship and sociability are also helpful to the “con artist”.

One notes that some of the same qualities that facilitate fraud are also integral to successful
commercial activity of a legitimate nature.

What Blum uncovered in his sample is a strong thread of antisocial personality disorder.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, antisocial personality
disorder is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of the rights of, others. This basically refers to a lack of social conscience and conventional morality. These personalities
frequently deceive, exploit and manipulate others in order to achieve personal gain (for
example, money, sex or power). A pattern of impulsivity is often apparent in all aspects of their lives and there is a special attraction to risk-taking, thrill- seeking and gambling. These
individuals show no genuine remorse for their actions. The superficial justifications that they
offer for having hurt others resemble the neutralisations that were discussed earlier. They
blame their victims for being stupid or deserving of their fate, they minimise the harmful
consequences of their actions or they may simply display an arrogant indifference.
They are also likely to believe that it is a “dog-eat-dog” world and everyone is out for number one
(DSM-IV Task Force 1994,
Last edited by _marg on Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
_marg

Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _marg »

Why me,

Please don't copy long posts unless you are going to address something particular that an individual says. Copy the first line or few, Liz made a sticky note of this.

Grampa75 I just noticed you did the same as why me. Also Grampa75 please do not respond with your testimony of your faith, please stick with the issues presented and address contents of post to which you are replying using your "reasoning".
_Yoda

Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _Yoda »

Copy the first line or few, Liz made a sticky note of this.



Already have! :)

Read the Admin Detailsthread at the top of each forum.

Edited to add----Some people have greater computer knowledge than others. Sometimes, I get hung up on the quote feature, and I have a Master's Degree in Computer Science! LOL

Shades and I do try to edit posts with long quote lines when it is apparent that the poster is only referring to a small snippet.

We don't, however, want to run the risk of denying someone the ability to speak, or get their point across. If you are having trouble with the quote feature, do the best you can, and PM one of us (me or Dr. Shades) if you would like us to have a look. :)
Last edited by _Yoda on Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Also Grampa75 please do not respond with your testimony of your faith, please stick with the issues presented and address contents of post to which you are replying using your "reasoning".



This is a freedom of speech zone. If Grampa75 wants to bear his testimony, he is welcome to do so. This is not strictly a debate forum. All opinions and insights are welcome here.
_gramps
_Emeritus
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:43 pm

Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _gramps »

why me wrote:
grampa75 wrote:

When I read anything about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ I first read all the prophecies foretelling that restoration. Daniel lets us know the very day the Kingdom of God would come to earth, which was when the tenth kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar would be established, which was 1828 while Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon. St. Peter said, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restitution of ALL THINGS ever spoken of by all the holy prophets since the world began." If anything at all had to be restored so as to allow the kindom of God to come, wouldn't it seem that something must have been missing. But it wasn't just one or two things that needed to be restored, it was ALL THINGS. It puzzels me why more people can't see the truths that fill the Book of Mormon and our other scriptures. I know the Church of Jesus Christ is the restored Kingdom of God that was prophesied to come to get the earth ready for the second coming of the Lord. "And he who will not believe that prophet, shall be destroy from off the face of the earth."

grampa75


You need to stick around here Grampa75. We need some wisdom on these boards. Don't let the crticism of your name get you down. For our critics, it seems to be unheard of that you may be 75 years old and a grandpa.

Glad to have you aboard.


whyme, what criticism has there been of his name? Marg was kind enough to point out to him that his name was very similar to mine, and that it seemed a little disingenuous to be using it, if he knew he was doing that (trading off mine).

For which, I thank you marg.

It appears grampa75 doesn't care. Whatever. I'm quite sure noone is going to be thinking that it's me quoting scriptures warning people of being destroyed off the earth (and seemingly relishing it). Welcome (again) grampa75
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_marg

Post by _marg »

liz3564 wrote:
Also Grampa75 please do not respond with your testimony of your faith, please stick with the issues presented and address contents of post to which you are replying using your "reasoning".



This is a freedom of speech zone. If Grampa75 wants to bear his testimony, he is welcome to do so. This is not strictly a debate forum. All opinions and insights are welcome here.



Liz, you must think you are back at MAD/FAIR. You should have added MOD note and in red and it could have brought back fond memories.

How disrespectful of you, to interject and counter a polite request I made to Grampa75. Testimony bearing has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Courtesy in threads, is such that people generally try to stick with the topic though of course they often go off topic. But I have asked Grampa to not bear his testimony but to stick with responding to comments and be on topic.

Your other post in this thread was also unnecessary, at least the extent of it. I pointed out to Why me and Grampa ...that you had a sticky note regarding copying posts in reply. If you thought they had missed it, all you need to give was the link, not a long explanation.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

marg wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Also Grampa75 please do not respond with your testimony of your faith, please stick with the issues presented and address contents of post to which you are replying using your "reasoning".



This is a freedom of speech zone. If Grampa75 wants to bear his testimony, he is welcome to do so. This is not strictly a debate forum. All opinions and insights are welcome here.



Liz, you must think you are back at MAD/FAIR. You should have added MOD note and in red and it could have brought back fond memories.

How disrespectful of you, to interject and counter a polite request I made to Grampa75. Testimony bearing has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Courtesy in threads, is such that people generally try to stick with the topic though of course they often go off topic. But I have asked Grampa to not bear his testimony but to stick with responding to comments and be on topic.

Your other post in this thread was also unnecessary, at least the extent of it. I pointed out to Why me and Grampa ...that you had a sticky note regarding copying posts in reply. If you thought they had missed it, all you need to give was the link, not a long explanation.


I apologize. I was going through threads this morning without my glasses on. I thought that you had stated "Liz, make a sticky note of this." instead of "Liz made a sticky note of this." That was why I pointed out that this had already been taken care of, and I included the link. As to my further explanation, I really didn't think it was long or rude. I was simply re-emphasizing what some newer posters like grampa75 may have missed in the Admin Thread. Getting the hang of the quote feature is not always easy, and I don't want that to stop someone from posting out of frustration.

As far as my second remark....it was not my intention to be rude, or to offend you, but I do stand by what I stated. Shades has tried to create an atmosphere of free speech. We don't have any right or wrong rules here about how to debate a topic, or discuss a topic. This is a discussion board, not a debate board. Opinions from both sides of the aisle are fair game.
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